forum Debate. Debate. Debate.

Started March 14, 2019 by Deleted user

tune

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Everyone sees things like "logic" and "common sense" a bit differently, and for some people, when science/logic can't debunk something, the only "logical" explanation left for them is that there's something else out there.
Which is why I said in another post:

belief can, in a way, be based on logic (or at least, the individual's interpretation of logic).

A lot of times, these miracles line up perfectly with religious writings, teachings, and traditions, so of course that's their first assumption. It seems too convenient to just be some sort of bizarre coincidence, so the brain assumes that there's some sort of mastermind behind it.
Not to mention, most of those miracles with "scientific explanation" have only been half-debunked, for example, with The Miracle of The Sun it's been proven that the sun didn't actually start spinning around and flashing different colors, it was simply a vision in the viewer's heads. However, we still have no explanations for Mary apparitions, the miraculous healing, or how the shepherd children were able to predict the future. It's all a magnificent blur and I flipping love it…

So basically, what I was trying to say with all this was that beliefs can be affected by logical decisions from the brain and not just feelings.
I know we can't use miracles as complete evidence, but they do hint at something beyond our knowledge, something strange, something incredible, something miraculous, and that's a beautiful thing. There's so much out there that not even the smartest people alive can explain, it's really fascinating when you look at it-

This appears to be getting a bit off-topic, so let's go back to what's supposed to be debated at the moment:
Whether or not parents should teach their children about their religion.
(We're also sorta debating whether or not people should be allowed to try and convert others, but that wasn't the original topic)

For my opinions, see the other above posts. Seriously. No one's tried to debunk them yet and I know I've got to have something wrong somewhere…

On the in your face converters, they're like that because they say "this is why I'm right" instead of "tell me about your religion" and asking questions about your experiences and then sharing their experiences and why they believe what they believe. Which is what you're SUPPOSED to do (sorry, I just felt the need to add that real quick)

Everyone sees things like "logic" and "common sense" a bit differently, and for some people, when science/logic can't debunk something, the only "logical" explanation left for them is that there's something else out there.

I can't exactly argue with this because Spock says something similar about the impossible. But that doesn't 100% equate to a Deity poking around.

A lot of times, these miracles line up perfectly with religious writings, teachings, and traditions, so of course that's their first assumption. It seems too convenient to just be some sort of bizarre coincidence, so the brain assumes that there's some sort of mastermind behind it.
Not to mention, most of those miracles with "scientific explanation" have only been half-debunked, for example, with The Miracle of The Sun it's been proven that the sun didn't actually start spinning around and flashing different colors, it was simply a vision in the viewer's heads. However, we still have no explanations for Mary apparitions, the miraculous healing, or how the shepherd children were able to predict the future. It's all a magnificent blur and I flipping love it…

Mmmmm…. no they don't. People make them 'line up perfectly' or fabricate the so called miracles themselves. Like the boy who faked seeing Jesus and going to Heaven while he was in a coma. Or the cases of "weeping Mary" that proved to be falsified by Church workers. The Miracle of the Sun has been debunked as it was an atmospheric occurrence not a 'vision'. Although, mass hallucination by chemicals in the air or in the water is highly possible. People don't just connect brains and share a 'vision'. Most of the miracles of modern day are all hearsay. "Someone saw Mary appear and told them to build a church for her." Hmmm. Okay sure. Totally 100% believable.

So basically, what I was trying to say with all this was that beliefs can be affected by logical decisions from the brain and not just feelings.

Decisions based on feelings not actual fact. Logic doesn't come from thin air, logic is backed up with tangible facts.

I know we can't use miracles as complete evidence, but they do hint at something beyond our knowledge, something strange, something incredible, something miraculous, and that's a beautiful thing. There's so much out there that not even the smartest people alive can explain, it's really fascinating when you look at it

I wont argue with this either because you do have a point. But just because we don't know of it now, or do not have the technology to explain it now, doesn't mean that we won't in the future. People used to think the SUN was a god. Look where we are now.

This appears to be getting a bit off-topic, so let's go back to what's supposed to be debated at the moment:
Whether or not parents should teach their children about their religion.
(We're also sorta debating whether or not people should be allowed to try and convert others, but that wasn't the original topic)

For my opinions, see the other above posts. Seriously. No one's tried to debunk them yet and I know I've got to have something wrong somewhere…

I have debunked your statements. You can't say the same things over and over and pull it up as a new argument. See my previous statements for responses.

^^^

Everyone sees things like "logic" and "common sense" a bit differently, and for some people, when science/logic can't debunk something, the only "logical" explanation left for them is that there's something else out there.

I can't exactly argue with this because Spock says something similar about the impossible. But that doesn't 100% equate to a Deity poking around.

Love how you're like "well I can't argue with this because Spock."

So basically, what I was trying to say with all this was that beliefs can be affected by logical decisions from the brain and not just feelings.

Decisions based on feelings not actual fact. Logic doesn't come from thin air, logic is backed up with tangible facts.

Then what about logic in philosophy?

I know we can't use miracles as complete evidence, but they do hint at something beyond our knowledge, something strange, something incredible, something miraculous, and that's a beautiful thing. There's so much out there that not even the smartest people alive can explain, it's really fascinating when you look at it

I wont argue with this either because you do have a point. But just because we don't know of it now, or do not have the technology to explain it now, doesn't mean that we won't in the future. People used to think the SUN was a god. Look where we are now.

Can't really argue with that one.

I can't exactly argue with this because Spock says something similar about the impossible. But that doesn't 100% equate to a Deity poking around.

I didn't say it did. As I've mentioned, there is no 100% concrete, solid evidence that a single religion is true or that God exists, there are only clues pointing towards the possibility.
So, in other words, I'm not saying that the existence of God is guaranteed fact, I'm saying that with the clues given, it's a reasonable, logical assumption for someone to make.
(Putting that in bold so people don't skip over it again.)

People make them 'line up perfectly' or fabricate the so-called miracles themselves. Like the boy who faked seeing Jesus and going to Heaven while he was in a coma. Or the cases of "Weeping Mary" that proved to be falsified by Church workers.

Yes, there are a few known cases of faked miracles, but when compared to the number of true, proven miracles that have physical evidence, that number isn't very high. (Note: By this, I mean the faked miracles that many people actually believed for a while, not just every time some child has walked up to their mom and said "Mommy! I saw Mary in the clouds while I was at school!". If I was counting those, the amount of faked miracles would be way higher than the proven ones.)
Also, most of these true miracles were not edited to line up perfectly. Take the Eucharistic Miracle in Naju, for example. No one could have simply replaced the Eucharist with a human heart while it was in a lady's mouth without her noticing and then had someone else take real photos of it before writing an entire blog post accurately and realistically explaining the miracle and the woman's reaction in an attempt to prove that Catholics were correct when it comes to Holy Communion. No one, except for GOD*
_{*Or possibly Satan. However, Satan doesn't have the same power as God, he can't cure disease or create life, meaning some of the other miracles that have happened to this same woman were definitely not caused by him, so why should we assume this one was?}

(Totally didn't choose that example in a desperate attempt to force my favorite miracle story into this response, no, not at all)

The Miracle of the Sun has been debunked as it was an atmospheric occurrence, not a 'vision'. Although, mass hallucination by chemicals in the air or in the water is highly possible. People don't just connect brains and share a 'vision'.

I know it wasn't actually a vision, I just didn't want to go into all that detail to explain something when it wasn't even the point of that example. Also, even if the spinning was an "atmospheric occurrence", we still don't have anything to debunk how multiple of those witnesses were miraculously cured afterwards, or how the wet ground and clothing managed to dry completely within 10 minutes, or how the three children were able to predict the future, or many of the other details about the event. There are still mysteries to it that no one can explain, and you can't deny that.

Most of the miracles of modern day are all hearsay. "Someone saw Mary appear and told them to build a church for her." Hmmm. Okay sure. Totally 100% believable.

If you're referring to the miracle in Guadalupe, I hate to break it to you but… You know Juan Diego's tilma still exists as physical proof that happened, right? You're also aware that it's survived both a bombing and being drenched in acid, it remains the exact temperature of the human body, and it contains microscopic reflections of Juan Diego himself in Mary's eyes?

And if you need more information:
(Source1) (Source2) (Source3) (Source4)

There's more to it than just "oh yeah, someone saw Mary appear, such miracle, very truth". It is pretty believable if you take the time to look at it.

Decisions based on feelings, not actual fact. Logic doesn't come from thin air, logic is backed up with tangible facts.

Ah yes, and there are facts such as

• The world is incredibly complex
• No one knows where it came from
• Not everything can be explained
• These unexplainable things happen all the time
• Most of these things hint at the existence of a God
• Some of these mysteries are miracles
• There is no evidence against these miracles _{(By this I mean the true, officially recognized miracles. It's not really a miracle if you can explain it)}
• Therefore the scraps of evidence mostly point towards the existence of a God

(and many more facts which I don't want to list because I think you get the point)
The only two things this could mean are either A: We simply don't have the technology to understand this yet, or B: There is a God out there. Both of those options, in my opinion, are logical decisions based on the previous facts. Religion is not only decided by the heart.

just because we don't know of it now, or do not have the technology to explain it now, doesn't mean that we won't in the future.

I'm aware of this, and I know my beliefs could be wrong. However, the way all the clues tie together so flawlessly, how every detail seems to point to the same thing, how everything appears too perfect for anyone to explain, makes me think that this isn't just a coincidence, there's someone watching over us, planning this all out, hoping that we'll notice His existence, and it doesn't hurt to believe in Him.
That's the decision I've made. You don't have to agree with me, and you can try to convince me otherwise, but you also can't get angry if other people try to change your mind.

People used to think the SUN was a god. Look where we are now.

…While I agree that humanity has improved when it comes to beliefs, I thought you were the same person who says all religions and cultures are valid and that ancient beliefs shouldn't be considered any less than modern ones, so how is sun worshipping different from the rest of those? I really don't mean to sound rude, I'm just genuinely curious.

---

As I've mentioned multiple times before, we probably shouldn't be arguing over whether or not Catholics are correct or whether miracles are real or not. As you've said, there's no solid evidence yet, so this entire argument is pointless. Let's please bring this back to the original topic, and If we can't, I have some other topic ideas that I totally didn't steal from a controversial YouTube channel we can use instead. This current argument isn't going anywhere and we probably shouldn't waste our time on it.

---

I have debunked your statements. You can't say the same things over and over and pull it up as a new argument. See my previous statements for responses.

So far, I have not seen you or anyone else properly debunk the point that:

for many religions, leaving the faith means you are, indeed, going to die and find yourself in a pit of eternal torment, so of course those people are going to try and convert you. They're worried about you and would never want you to endure that sort of suffering, so we should probably be respectful and not yell at them for trying to do the right thing.

Unless you count brushing over all that and claiming that whoever tries to convert you is just disrespectful for caring about you/following their church's teachings as "debunking".

_{(Also, of course I keep having to bring up the same things over and over again, no one seems to be listening… I spent hours writing those dumb, terribly explained points that probably don't make any sense, pay attention to them)}

Just jumping in here

Nutella, I'm going to debunk what you said and also point out that Eris has directly addressed your statement.

I understand that a parent might be concerned for their child. They might truly believe that they'll burn in hell if they convert out.
But what does a religious person do when something is going wrong in a situation that you don't have control over?
They put it in the hands of god. Because all the parent is doing by trying to convert their child is hurting them and making the situation worse. If they truly believe that their child has made a bad desicion, the best thing they can do is step back, respect their choices, and pray. Just because we don't agree with somebody doesn't give us the right to force something on them. All you're doing is damaging your relationship and trying to play god by controlling somebody, which is a big no no.

Listen hon, you’ve been recycling points for a few pages now. Getting kind of old, especially since I came here for a proper, logical debate. But seeing as how I’m on mobile and don’t feel like writing whole ass paragraphs at the moment, gonna briefly address some points.
First off, all miracles can be fabricated, and most are in the modern age. And as a Confucianist Deist I’d like to briefly add that I do believe that something with deistic abilities was born after the Big Bang that helped in the development of the human race. But as of now, post Jesus’s death whatever was the main player in this fucked off. And if there really are miracles, the only logical explanation is that something on a far, far smaller scale is flitting about. If there was a deities, or a collection of deities, they weren’t that powerful to begin with. And miracles specifically could easily be a magic trick. After all, there are millions of tricks that had almost no explanation until hundreds of years post-performance. And look, forcing anything, even religion, is fundamentally wrong, because you can’t make everyone think the same as you.
Secondly, for the love of god, quit making paragraphs half a page long just so you can repeat yourself. Say what you want on a particular point in a paragraph or three, not a damn page. People have repeatedly refuted and debunked your arguments, Eris in particular, as well as bits myself. You can’t just blindly say that fact is wrong because you “believe it is.” Fact is fact until proved wrong by the scientific process, not by religion. Remember how the Catholic Church only allowed advancements in technology that were related to torture or exploration of counties they could potentially conquer? You’re operating on the assumption we’ll never know more than we already do, which is completely false. The human brain and certain, currently unpredicted gene pools are still subject to evolution through natural selection and environmental adaptation, which we will need to survive in a world where we’re learning new things every day. And don’t even start on evolution not existing. We have vestigial structures still, and have of yet to fully evolve out due to the survival cushioning technological advancement gives us. It’s a slow process, and our brain will definitely evolve to handle the new info we’ll eventually find

Just jumping in here

Nutella, I'm going to debunk what you said and also point out that Reid has directly addressed your statement.

I understand that a parent might be concerned for their child. They might truly believe that they'll burn in hell if they convert out.
But what does a religious person do when something is going wrong in a situation that you don't have control over?
They put it in the hands of god. Because all the parent is doing by trying to convert their child is hurting them and making the situation worse. If they truly believe that their child has made a bad desicion, the best thing they can do is step back, respect their choices, and pray. Just because we don't agree with somebody doesn't give us the right to force something on them. All you're doing is damaging your relationship and trying to play god by controlling somebody, which is a big no no.

I am also jumping in here. To extend upon this, a large number of people who have religion forced upon them end up hating the religion for it's forceful nature. Therefore you could be driving away the person instead of making them join and saving them, therefore, adding to their decision which would lead them to burn for all eternity.

Just jumping in here

Nutella, I'm going to debunk what you said and also point out that Reid has directly addressed your statement.

I understand that a parent might be concerned for their child. They might truly believe that they'll burn in hell if they convert out.
But what does a religious person do when something is going wrong in a situation that you don't have control over?
They put it in the hands of god. Because all the parent is doing by trying to convert their child is hurting them and making the situation worse. If they truly believe that their child has made a bad desicion, the best thing they can do is step back, respect their choices, and pray. Just because we don't agree with somebody doesn't give us the right to force something on them. All you're doing is damaging your relationship and trying to play god by controlling somebody, which is a big no no.

I am also jumping in here. To extend upon this, a large number of people who have religion forced upon them end up hating the religion for it's forceful nature. Therefore you could be driving away the person instead of making them join and saving them, therefore, adding to their decision which would lead them to burn for all eternity.

Yes.

I…just…there's so many logical fallacies

To our argument or another?

Care to debate? (Also who are you referring to)

To the not Ella peeps. I'm sure Ella's got some in her argument, but since I'm on her side they're harder to see. And I'd rather not because as it is I get very frustrated and I stink at debates. Always have, don't care to get better, really.

Would you like to provide the fallacy?

Well that’s just lazy on your part lmao. Why are you in the debate chat and actively posting when you can’t debate and, as you say, “don’t care to get better?” Cmon pal.

Well that’s just lazy on your part lmao. Why are you in the debate chat and actively posting when you can’t debate and, as you say, “don’t care to get better?” Cmon pal.

^^^

Well, you keep attacking Ella instead of the topic, and when you do talk about the topic, it's not about the topic, which is "should we teach children religion?", you're talking about converting. Which I suppose you all are, but I only see Ella pointing that out. Thank you, that's all, I'm going to go eat peeps and go to sleep now

I didn't say it did. As I've mentioned, there is no 100% concrete, solid evidence that a single religion is true or that God exists, there are only clues pointing towards the possibility.
So, in other words, I'm not saying that the existence of God is guaranteed fact, I'm saying that with the clues given, it's a reasonable, logical assumption for someone to make.
(Putting that in bold so people don't skip over it again.)

I literally said that I'm not going to argue the point you made. Literally typed it out clearly so people could read it. It's impolite to keep arguing when someone has conceded the point.

Yes, there are a few known cases of faked miracles, but when compared to the number of true, proven miracles that have physical evidence, that number isn't very high. (Note: By this, I mean the faked miracles that many people actually believed for a while, not just every time some child has walked up to their mom and said "Mommy! I saw Mary in the clouds while I was at school!". If I was counting those, the amount of faked miracles would be way higher than the proven ones.)

This is wildly incorrect. Many, as in a lot, so called miracles get debunked all the time as it gets investigated by multiple parties including the Vatican, who tend to keep strangely quiet whenever something doesn't turn out the way they want it to. Also, be sure to use the words 'true, proven" and "physical evidence" correctly. No miracle has ever been proven to be 100% true. There's no such evidence. Just because people cried 'God' doesnt label that as proof. Proof is a consensus of all experiments and all walks of life.

Also, most of these true miracles were not edited to line up perfectly. Take the Eucharistic Miracle in Naju, for example. No one could have simply replaced the Eucharist with a human heart while it was in a lady's mouth without her noticing and then had someone else take real photos of it before writing an entire blog post accurately and realistically explaining the miracle and the woman's reaction in an attempt to prove that Catholics were correct when it comes to Holy Communion. No one, except for GOD*
_{*Or possibly Satan. However, Satan doesn't have the same power as God, he can't cure disease or create life, meaning some of the other miracles that have happened to this same woman were definitely not caused by him, so why should we assume this one was?}

This is a nice story, although most of the two 'articles' (briefly in the second one) fail to mention that the woman in question suffered from cancer as well as other unnamed diseases. Also the acclaimed 'flesh' was never examined by an actual doctor to be real flesh. It was only observed by people of the church. (there are other holes in the story I'm not going to point out because I'm getting bored or arguing miracles that are easily debunked if you scratch the surface of the story to look underneath.) I do not know what other diseases the woman in question had but, cancer can be extremely harsh on the body and the mind. Hallucinations are common especially if the cancer has metastasized to the brain. Bleeding of the mouth, or anywhere in the body, is common as well in cancer patients because the body's integrity and protection systems are repressed, making it easy for someone to 'accidentally' make themselves bleed. Again I do not know what kind of cancer she was suffering from, but if she had cancer of the stomach it wouldn't be unheard of for her to be coughing/vomiting up pieces of her stomach lining for the tumor itself. So the flesh that suddenly 'appeared in her mouth while no one was conveniently looking until she showed them' could have been her own flesh.

I'm not trying to debunk the miracles here…. it's just as a writer/reader it's hard to ignore the plot holes.

The Miracle of the Sun has been debunked as it was an atmospheric occurrence, not a 'vision'. Although, mass hallucination by chemicals in the air or in the water is highly possible. People don't just connect brains and share a 'vision'.

I know it wasn't actually a vision, I just didn't want to go into all that detail to explain something when it wasn't even the point of that example. Also, even if the spinning was an "atmospheric occurrence", we still don't have anything to debunk how multiple of those witnesses were miraculously cured afterwards, or how the wet ground and clothing managed to dry completely within 10 minutes, or how the three children were able to predict the future, or many of the other details about the event. There are still mysteries to it that no one can explain, and you can't deny that.

1. Did they get cured though?
2. It was hot. In the desert. Evaporation is a proven fact.
3. There's nothing miraculous about an atmospheric occurrence that could have happened on any day of the year (they happen every day actually, humans just dont pay attention unless its pretty.) And let's not forget to mention there were probably many signs of the coming occurrence in the days before but no one was paying attention/ did not have the means to notice until the day of.
4. The sun did not 'zig-zag- across the sky before turning itself into a giant orange flaming ball and hurtle itself down at a group of people.

Most of the miracles of modern day are all hearsay. "Someone saw Mary appear and told them to build a church for her." Hmmm. Okay sure. Totally 100% believable.

If you're referring to the miracle in Guadalupe, I hate to break it to you but… You know Juan Diego's tilma still exists as physical proof that happened, right? You're also aware that it's survived both a bombing and being drenched in acid, it remains the exact temperature of the human body, and it contains microscopic reflections of Juan Diego himself in Mary's eyes?

I actually wasn't referring to this, but yay yet another story that was not transcribed until over a decade after the event happened. I would just like to know why someone was cleaning with sufuric acid in a church….. and why they just let someone blow it up as well. More plot holes. If you want to call microscopic smudges that kinda look like people actual proof, then I have a cheeto that looks like Buddha for you.

Decisions based on feelings, not actual fact. Logic doesn't come from thin air, logic is backed up with tangible facts.

Ah yes, tangible facts such as

• The world is incredibly complex
• No one knows where it came from
• Not everything can be explained
• These unexplainable things happen all the time
• Most of these things hint at the existence of a God
• Some of these mysteries are miracles
• There is no evidence against these miracles _{(By this I mean the true, officially recognized miracles. It's not really a miracle if you can explain it)}
• Therefore the scraps of evidence mostly point towards the existence of a God

• yes the world is complex. duh. that's actually scientifically proven as there are millions of chemical occurrences and the like that happen ever single day to sustain life on this planet. What's your point here?
• You're joking right? You know the Big Bang is not a theory, right? You know that this planet went through millions of years of formation before it became what we know it as today. It came from alllllll the awesome stuff that is in space. Chemicals, gases, asteroids, etc.
• No, not everything can be explained, but that doesnt mean it points to a Deity. (as I said before. Jeezzzz. Broken record much?)
• Aokigahara is still an unexplained mystery, but I'm sure that doesn't land on the list of 'miracles.'
• There's plenty. Most religious people, like yourself, don't bother to look for the debunked stories.

(and many more facts which I don't want to list because I think you get the point)
The only two things this could mean are either A: We simply don't have the technology to understand this yet, or B: There is a God out there. Both of those options, in my opinion, are logical decisions based on the previous facts. Religion is not only decided by the heart.

I haven't argued either of these points. I've actually said mutiple times that we don't have the technology to understand everything, but that we will.

I'm aware of this, and I know my beliefs could be wrong. However, the way all the clues tie together so flawlessly, how every detail seems to point to the same thing, how everything appears too perfect for anyone to explain, makes me think that this isn't just a coincidence, there's someone watching over us, planning this all out, hoping that we'll notice His existence, and it doesn't hurt to believe in Him.
That's the decision I've made. You don't have to agree with me, and you can try to convince me otherwise, but you also can't get angry if other people try to change your mind.

But they don't tie together flawlessly. There would be tangible proof if they did. I scienced the fuck out of most of what you said. But I digress, I respect that you have come to your own conclusions.

I hope you would do the same for me.

…While I agree that humanity has improved when it comes to beliefs, I thought you were the same person who says all religions and cultures are valid and that ancient beliefs shouldn't be considered any less than modern ones, so how is sun worshipping different from the rest of those? I really don't mean to sound rude, I'm just genuinely curious.

NO WHERE did I disrespect a culture. What I said before about all religions being valid is completely true. I was merely stating that people used to think the sun was a god and know we know that is not the case. That it is a star in which our solar system revolves. I was showing how humanity has evolved through knowledge and science to prove that most things thought to be miraculous are in fact….simple things to explain.

---

As I've mentioned multiple times before, we probably shouldn't be arguing over whether or not Catholics are correct or whether miracles are real or not. As you've said, there's no solid evidence yet, so this entire argument is pointless. Let's please bring this back to the original topic, and If we can't, I have some other topic ideas that I totally didn't steal from a controversial YouTube channel we can use instead. This current argument isn't going anywhere and we probably shouldn't waste our time on it.

I would really appreciate it if you stopped trying to take over my chats. You did this in the Rudeness chat too. Please stop, you are not the moderator.
If I, or anyone else, still want to talk about something they are more than welcome to. Conversations deviate from topic all the time. I happen to find this section of religious discussion to be interesting, so I will continue to discuss it if I so wish, not because you told me not to or because you think that it's not going anywhere.

I have debunked your statements. You can't say the same things over and over and pull it up as a new argument. See my previous statements for responses.

So far, I have not seen you or anyone else properly debunk the point that:

for many religions, leaving the faith means you are, indeed, going to die and find yourself in a pit of eternal torment, so of course those people are going to try and convert you. They're worried about you and would never want you to endure that sort of suffering, so we should probably be respectful and not yell at them for trying to do the right thing.

Because no one, literally no one, knows this to be true (or false. whatever) Leaving faith doesnt damn anyone. Where's your proof of hell and damnation?
A book that tells you so? Yea, no.
You can't go around telling people their going to hell because they don't believe the same as you. It's disrespectful and incredibly triggering and hurtful to hear something like that, even if they 'are trying to save you." Anyone would react negatively to that.

Unless you count brushing over all that and claiming that whoever tries to convert you is just disrespectful for caring about you/following their church's teachings as "debunking".

You should really think about it from the other person's point of view once in awhile. Imagine someone told you that you were going to hell for believing in God instead of the Triple Goddess, wouldn't that just ruin your day? Rip your heart out? Because your way of life was attacked in a vile way.
So how is that different for those who believe in Allah, or Vishnu (And other Hindi Gods I cant remember right now), or the teachings of Buddha (who is all about PEACE), teachings that your family has been happily following since your ancestors were born, teachings based deeply within your culture? And someone tells you that it's wrong and that you're going to suffer horribly and eternally because of it. THAT Ella, is extremely disrespectful, no matter what, you are trying to do. It should not be your, or anyone's business what and how people worship. That is a private matter that has nothing to do with the outside world.

We did get off on a tangent, I will admit. And we’re only “attacking” Ella because she’s been the only one to argue on our opposing side. We’re not attacking, we’re debating, and I’ll happily circle back to the primary argument once we get past this

Okay guys, leave them alone, maybe they just don't know a ton about the current subject and don't want to embarrass themselves on their first try, or maybe they're just stalking so they can learn more about stuff. They don't have to participate, and that's perfectly fine.

Well, you keep attacking Ella instead of the topic, and when you do talk about the topic, it's not about the topic, which is "should we teach children religion?", you're talking about converting. Which I suppose you all are, but I only see Ella pointing that out. Thank you, that's all, I'm going to go eat peeps and go to sleep now

for many religions, leaving the faith means you are, indeed, going to die and find yourself in a pit of eternal torment, so of course those people are going to try and convert you. They're worried about you and would never want you to endure that sort of suffering, so we should probably be respectful and not yell at them for trying to do the right thing.

Okay guys, leave them alone, maybe they just don't know a ton about the current subject and don't want to embarrass themselves on their first try, or maybe they're just stalking so they can learn more about stuff. They don't have to participate, and that's perfectly fine.

Yeah, but there's a difference between observing and running in here to say "this person is right!" And then just running off