No one ever said white people are excluded and I do understand that. Racism isn't okay no matter what party you're a part of but I don't understand why when a POC gets the role or whatever, it's an issue– despite white people being more likely to get it in most shows than any other poc
And in Hamilton, white people can still play ensemble parts, and King George. Just not the leads. As a white person, we have so many shows starring white people, and tbh I feel like people wouldn't even complain if Hamilton wasn't so popular.
And fair. But that’s just because more people look at something if it’s popular.
But wasn’t that still a form of racism?
Since the roles and musical were written with POC in mind, it's not any different than saying that a white girl can't play Kim in Miss Saigon, or Jasmine in Aladdin, etc.
Except Jasmine is not white. By that argument, it makes sense to say that only white people could be in Hamilton.
That's why I said that Jasmine shouldn't be played by white people. Because she was written as a not-white woman.
I’m confused. Let me restate. By that reasoning only white people should have been allowed to be in Hamilton. Which would have been a great pity in my opinion.
No, since Hamilton was written for POC to star in, then they should star in it. My reasoning is that those characters were specifically written as POC, and not meant for white people to star as.
No one ever said white people are excluded and I do understand that. Racism isn't okay no matter what party you're a part of but I don't understand why when a POC gets the role or whatever, it's an issue– despite white people being more likely to get it in most shows than any other poc
The issue isn’t that a non white person got the role. I don’t care. I think Washington being played by the man he was was a fantastic decision. The issue is that people were barred from Hamilton based on the color of their skin.
Not barred from the show, barred from certain parts. White people can still play King George, and iirc can be in the ensemble, but the leads are POC.
Only the characters that don’t matter except for one guy. That sounds like The Token White Person.
Whoa whoa whoa. Ensemble is just as important as any other role.
Forgive me my untruth by hastiness. But do you understand what I mean?
But wasn’t that still a form of racism?
Since the roles and musical were written with POC in mind, it's not any different than saying that a white girl can't play Kim in Miss Saigon, or Jasmine in Aladdin, etc.
Except Jasmine is not white. By that argument, it makes sense to say that only white people could be in Hamilton.
That's why I said that Jasmine shouldn't be played by white people. Because she was written as a not-white woman.
I’m confused. Let me restate. By that reasoning only white people should have been allowed to be in Hamilton. Which would have been a great pity in my opinion.
No, since Hamilton was written for POC to star in, then they should star in it. My reasoning is that those characters were specifically written as POC, and not meant for white people to star as.
But it’s about white people.
It was written for POC to star in
By that logic Jasmine could be written for a white person and that would make everything okay if she was played by a German.
Oooh racism, that's a great topic! Okay, I'm gonna try to tackle this:
First point: Lin Manuel Miranda and his friends weren't being cast very often due to their various races. Broadway wanted to cast white people as their lead roles, although many supportive roles would go to people of color. So Lin decides, hey, why don't I do it myself? And he writes a play with characters in mind who are played by POC, and then casts his friends among other POC to be in his show. White people aren't barred from being in the show, but they are not given the lead roles because Lin wrote these roles for the people who weren't getting the roles. It's like affirmative action –Lin was still looking for a talented cast, he wasn't just casting people because they were POC, but he gave preference to the underrepresented talented actors. And you can clearly see that –there were no people better for the roles than the ones he cast.
Second point: Even if Lin hadn't allowed any white people at all in his cast, that still isn't racism. There are many casts even today that are exclusively white, so why is it so bad to have an exclusively POC cast? POC have historically not been represented in media, in history, in entertainment, and on stage. So why not let them have a space in which they can show off their talent without having to compete with the majority, with the people who have an easier time getting a role without all the bias that comes with it? It makes sense to me, again, like scholarships for African-American students or for women.
I fail to see how it is racist at all.
The Hamilton OBC is quite possibly the best OBC for any show, each of the cast members was so perfectly cast!!
Ah, a theater debate! I can totally contribute.
There are so many roles made for white people out there. Out of all the musicals on Broadway, I don't think it's an issue if one popular musical, such as Hamilton, made itself a POC space. Also, the casting of POC is also symbolic to the show. Think about it. Hamilton is all about how our country was founded. Having a diverse cast sends the message that this country was founded on POC just as much as white people.
You're missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that Lin saw specifically that these people weren't getting roles, so he made roles for them. It's not really a race thing, because say you saw that kids never got cast in musicals. You'd make a musical for kids, and of course you wouldn't let adults be in the musical because even though the plot may work with adults, you wrote it for children who never got roles. It's the same concept. POC weren't getting roles, so he created a space in which they would. Scholarships for African-American women were created because African-American women weren't getting any scholarships, in the same way that affirmative action was created because POC weren't getting into colleges –not because of a lack of skills or talent or smarts, but because of years and years of institutionalized racism. If POC aren't given a space to flourish, aren't given a space that explicitly asks for them, then they won't get the roles. That's the state of society, like it or not. It's not racist to create a space for the people who have been ignored and denied access for hundreds of years. You can argue all you like for reverse racism, I'm not sold on it but I see where you're coming from, but this is not an example of that.
I'm going to quickly say that you have the benefit of never knowing what its like to not see yourself depicted in media and in entertainment. You won't know the feeling of being denied entry to something because of your race. Because, face it, Lin wasn't barring all white people, because white people were still allowed to play certain roles. He was showing preference to people who had been shunned from the stage again, and again, and again. What began as him and his friends became a bit of a movement, and that's just flat out not racist.
@WriteOutofTime just shut it down. My thoughts exactly. Bravo.
I'm going to quickly say that you have the benefit of never knowing what its like to not see yourself depicted in media and in entertainment. You won't know the feeling of being denied entry to something because of your race. Because, face it, Lin wasn't barring all white people, because white people were still allowed to play certain roles. He was showing preference to people who had been shunned from the stage again, and again, and again. What began as him and his friends became a bit of a movement, and that's just flat out not racist.
On the one hand I see where you’re coming from. (With rep in media.) On the other hand I am a light skinned American Saudi so you might be wrong… Idk.
They were allowed to play the supporting cast, b and c characters except for one. The answer in my opinion to racism is not to go the other direction. Wouldn’t it have been better if Lin merely selected those most worthy to play the parts? (Of course that still might have resulted in the same people being cast but that doesn’t make the point moot.) If he was showing preference based on race, how was it not racism?
You're still willfully missing the point. Lin cast the very best, but he ALSO cast people who weren't getting cast due to the color of their skin. Again, creating a space for the underrepresented is not racist, like, at all.
Well what is racism then if not discrimination by race?
He was given those who were turned down a chance, essentially.
Is giving people who don't normally get opportunities an opportunity racist? Like I said in the kid/adult analogy, it's not about race, it's about representation and Lin's own personal experience with theatre.
Representation of what? Wasn’t it representation of people of a certain race (or people outside of a certain race rather.) If not what was the rep for?
Well what is racism then if not discrimination by race?
It's not discrimination. It's not like he was degrading any white person. He was giving POC a chance. I'm gonna give you an example that's totally off topic (but not really). (This is a terrible example but its probably the best I can do atm) Say that a child has been receiving most of the positive attention from their parents because of good grades while the other sibling gets the opposite treatment. By the time that other sibling gets better grades and is also getting positive attention from those parents, there shouldn't be a reason why the older sibling should think that those parents love them any less
Representation of what? Wasn’t it representation of people of a certain race (or people outside of a certain race rather.) If not what was the rep for?
Yes it was representation for POC, is that somehow wrong?
