forum Please let me critique characters!!! [CLOSED - SORRY!]

Started May 20, 2020 by @CinnamonRoll

tune

Hi everyone!!! Um, not to be the worst or anything, but I was thinking… maybe I'll have a break tonight?? I've been going nonstop at these for like two weeks now, and I haven't taken a single night off. @zims and @stolenbrocoli, you're the only two people in my queue right now. Would you guys be okay with waiting until tomorrow night? If you have deadlines or something (self-imposed or otherwise) and NEED this tonight, please let me know!!! I'd be happy to do it if it's urgent. But if not, I was thinking a quick Friday night off could be nice.

And if I can, I'll try to do your critiques during the day tomorrow, so you don't have to wait until nighttime!! Does that sound okay??

Seriously, if you need me, let me know!! But if you're okay with this, that's great too! :DD

(oh, and I promise I won't disappear!!! I love this thread and plan to keep it going at least through the summer). :D

@CinnamonRoll That's perfectly fine ! You've been so helpful you deserve a break :) you can just get to mine whenever you feel like it !

Yeah, for sure! Like no pressure dude! Take as long as you need!

@CinnamonRoll Thank you so much for the name suggestions. I ended up choosing Ana. Now I just need to think of one for her fiance. I was watching Road to El Dorado which is why I called them Tulio and Miguel

Hi again, could you take a look at Evie? Evie Alcippe

Hi everyone!!! Thanks for being awesome!! I'm going to take care of at least one critique right now, and do 1-2 more tonight!! (My break was lovely, but I missed helping out on this thread). :D

@zims, you're first up!! Okay, top down on Daniel…

First off, this nature page is EXCELLENT. Almost everything on here flows incredibly well–good job!! I only really have one minor issue (and I'll admit, I'm nit-picking here). Often in Danny's sheet, he's described as laid-back. But looking at a bunch of his other traits (overprotective, driven, stubborn). He's a debater and a competitive athlete. A guy like that is almost guaranteed to be working hard and highly active in many areas of life. That being said, I can see how he could be level-headed and/or generally stress-free. But for the level of drive I see in Danny's character sheet, the idea of him being laid-back seems somehow wrong.

Since you have such a smooth page here, I'm going to tell you what I think could be further explored! Nature, again, just DECIMATES. It's amazing. But for social, I'd be interested in seeing more buildup behind religion and politics especially. Religion–clearly he's Jewish, raised Jewish. But did his faith ever waver? How did his experience with the anti-semitic senior (whom I will gladly KILL) affect him/his faith? Why did he choose to continue in his faith? Which denomination of Judaism does he practice? Is it different from his family, or the same? Politics–how did he develop his views? Oftentimes, people of strong faith tend conservative (I thought this was just Christians, but I went to a speaker at a synagogue last year and my world was forever changed)–was this true for his parents, or did he learn his liberal views from them? I'm writing WAY too many half-rhetorical questions, but you get the picture!! Understanding origins for traits like these is incredibly interesting to consider as well as revealing about a character.

Backstory is solid!! You explained away a few of my half-rhetorical questions about religion. I generally try to nit-pick this section for at LEAST one note, so here it is: how is he so laid-back? Danny is obviously a busy student, struggling with anti-semitism and his sexuality. I see that you've explained his good relationships with his family in Relationships, but what about time? His parents may be able to make time for him, but that's only half the equation. How does Danny balance everything he does with alone time and family chats? Does he immediately open up about his sexuality? I feel like writing an incredibly grounded character under so much external stress is fine, but it has to be explained. Stress would be intrinsic in a character like this, and I feel like you need more basis in backstory to explain Danny's calm.

And I do believe that's all I can offer you!! You'll notice it's not a ton. I'm so sorry I can't give you more, but seriously, this is a very well-done character!! He seems like a genuinely nice guy with plenty going on below the first layer of personality. You should be proud. And although your characters are difficult for me to critique (they're just… good) I'd love to meet some more!!! Drop back by the thread anytime. And of course, I hope that these few notes can help you!! :DDD

Dude! Thank you so much! These critiques are so helpful!!! I 100% get the laid-back thing and the whole time I was writing it I was thinking that it didn't really sound right. Level-headed is definitely a better word for what I was trying to convey.
I'll make sure to delve into his and his family's faith more. I usually shy away from religion a little with my characters since I'm not really sure how most religions work, and I don't want to accidentally write something stereotypical or offensive, but I felt more comfortable making it a bigger part of Danny's identity since I'm Jewish.
Yeah, so I wanted Danny to be more of a grounded, secure kind of character, but I need to explain how he got there. And even if he is well adjusted he's not gonna be immune to stress.
And just like, thank you so much! You're too nice 👉👈

@zims - I'm so happy you liked it!!! Helping y'all out absolutely FUELS me. Exploring religion is so, so interesting–never be afraid of it, even if it's not your religion! Ask for advice, try your best, and make it clear that you have no intention of being offensive. Good helpers will support you in your efforts, not tear you down. And come on–you're too nice to ME!! Come back by the thread sometime :DD

After SEVERAL hours, it's time for today's second critique - @stolenbrocoli 's Garret (take two!) @PaperCraneEnthusiast, you're first up tomorrow night!!

I jumped back and re-read my previous Garret critique. I'll try not to repeat myself, but sorry if I do! Okay, top down…

Going back on what I said already???? It's more likely than you'd think!! So I know I already brought up how his manipulative nature doesn't make sense, but now, with the edits you've made, the explanation given makes it more confusing. Let me explain. Garret has become a character who's silently obsessive. He's watching and fantasizing without opening up in any way. I don't recall exactly what about Garret was different before, but suddenly he seems MUCH more prone to manipulation. I'm still not convinced he'd be good at it–again, charisma–but I think he'd be the kind of guy who sends texts with incredible premeditation.

On the flippety-flip, he also seems strangely emotionally driven. He lashes out at others for his own mistakes, takes everything personally, and has dangerously obsessive tendencies. And, of course, his main hobby of making conspiracy theories is a manifestation of chronic overthinking. It seems like he'd also be the kind of guy to write rage texts, whether or not they ever get sent.

Ultimately, this either makes him an unstable, polar character, or a fundamentally flawed one. His quiet obsession and manipulation is one flavor of flaw, but his apparent emotional vulnerability and volatility is another one entirely. I'm not saying these two can't coexist, because they absolutely can. But that will take a lot of explanation, and more likely than not lead to a character who is highly polar and unstable.

Also, I know you have Garret as an MC, but I feel like I should warn you–it feels more and more like you're starting to write a villain/antagonist/gray character. He's either a silent manipulator or a volatile, emotion-driven character. Or he's both and wildly unstable. He doesn't fully confide in anyone, to the point where he overidealizes relationships in his obsession. This doesn't feel like the guy we should be cheering for. Which is fine!!! Because if there's one thing I adore, it's watching my characters make their own way as they grow. I mean, my former protagonist actually developed to the point where her arc led her down a wildly dark path, making her an antagonist, much to my surprise. But she's still my MC. So I guess just know that Garret may be a main character, but right now, he's veering away from the role of 'protagonist.'

(Note: I'm glad you filled out a bunch more on Social!! The "have you ever seen a dirty deer?" bit in particular is helpful to getting to know Garret).

OOOOOOH backstory is COOL! A blend of insecurity and narcissism… I love to see it. (In some circles, people know me as someone with 'a god complex and chronic validation issues,' which is hilarious, sad, and absolutely true). That's a wonderful and interesting way to explain how his personality developed!! I would still like to see more about how his obsessive nature developed, however. Since he had a great relationship with his mother, he is aware of healthy relationships–so what went wrong? I can make some assumptions, but I refuse to type them out because I intend to make you do that.

And that is all I can give you!!!! I actually had a great time with this critique. It's always fun to have a front-row seat to character development!!! Garret has already come so far (in, like, what, two days???) which is super impressive!! If you want to keep swinging by for more Garret critiques, I'd love that (but be warned: I always find something to nitpick). For now, I hope my notes can help you out a bit!! :DDD

@CinnamonRoll thank you so much !! i’ll work on explaining the obsession and manipulation and such. you’re so helpful and i appreciate your input endlessly. it’s honestly helped me get more in depth with ALL my characters and i think i’ve gotten to know them all a lot more :)

@CinnamonRoll thanks for critiquing amari and ikaika! it helped me out a lot (especially with amari). i've updated them with the notes you gave me, and they're both much stronger characters now!

Guys, I genuinely can't explain how much these responses mean to me. To think that I helped y'all improve your art is so amazingly flattering and uplifting. And I don't want to sound like I'm saying the same thing over and over, but seriously–it always makes me happy!!! Every time y'all swing by to say thanks makes me smile so much. And again, I'm TOTALLY a broken record here, but please come back by the thread sometime!!!! 'Regulars' make me SO happy!! And I'd love to see more of your universes!!! And I don't want to seem like I'm generalizing all of you, so here are some individual responses:

@stolenbrocoli - getting to know your characters is AMAZING!! I'm so glad I helped you do that!! It's wild when they start literally living in your head, and their arcs just write themselves. God, I love that so much!!

@Foxxglove - I'm really glad I could help motivate you!!! Never give up on even the smallest of universes. I mean, my current main grew out of a one-shot collab online–who knew??? I'm sure yours will go so far!!!

@Isaac - I'm so happy my notes were helpful!! Your worldbuilding around those characters was honestly amazing! It's great that the characters are now even stronger than they already were to fill out that incredible universe! :D

Okay, @PaperCraneEnthusiast, you're my only critique of the night!! Top down on Evie…

(Quick note: is that your art????? it's amazing!!!!)

Before I do real stuff, quick question about her mannerisms. As a gardener, why would Evie ever tear up leaves??? It strikes me as odd–like a bookworm who dog-ears library books.

A lot of Evie's nature page flows very well (it also makes me cry, but that's definitely not because it's bad, it's because I want her to LOVE HERSELF). I do see a thing or two that could use further explanation. First is her persistence. While I really want Evie to be persistent as a kind of saving grace from her insecurity, it doesn't really… fit. For someone who seems to care so deeply about the opinions of others, you'd think that Evie would be the type to slam her mouth shut as soon as someone expresses the slightest bit of disinterest in her ideas. This is even more true given her indecisiveness. I think here, it's important to distinguish what brings out her persistence. What situations are so dire that Evie is willing to push through her insecurity and fight for her plans/ideas?

I also feel like her excitability needs to be further explained. To me, that seems like a kind of inner Evie, someone who loves bouncing around, venting about her latest intellectual conquest. If that's who she is at her core, it should play out more in mannerisms and flaws especially. When Evie's not smothering herself, who does she become? And, of course, the eternal question: when does she feel comfortable being herself? Is there a certain kind of person who makes her feel more confident? This can be a certain trait or vibe that she gets, or something else entirely (for example, I'm pretty shy, but when I have to speak to a bunch of people YOUNGER than me–not even by that much–I'm instantly fine).

Also, conditions. Honest question here: has Evie ever shown signs of depression? Or did something happen in her past to change her worldview? Because this whole idea of "I'm worthless" shouldn't just come from nowhere.

Okay, politics!! For starts, I always find it helpful to place my characters somewhere on a scale of "liberal-to-conservative" to explain how they see political issues, not just the government. But I have a major question here. You say that Evie will be a leader if she has to. How? This is a character who's deeply insecure, indecisive, and overly dependent on what others think. Even in her hyper-up nerd special form, those traits don't just go away. How could Evie make a good leader? And more importantly, why would she ever accept that position, rather than simply handing it off to someone she thinks is better suited? I've seen no indication of ambition in Evie up until now, so this threw me for a bit of a loop.

Backstory is solid, but not exactly comprehensive. Nothing's out of place or anything, but I'll admit I was hoping for an explanation for Evie's insecurity. Nothing BAD happened to her (at least none that's written here). She seems to have had a happy and lucky life–nothing that I'd expect to give rise to an insecure pessimist. I think that's the most major thing you need to develop further in the backstory!

And I do believe that's all I have!! Evie's a really, really solid character (who makes me cry but that's FINE. a lot of things make me cry) who flows very smoothly overall. I only found a couple areas to be picky about, and I hope those notes can help you develop Evie further!!! :DDD

Its me again, but with another character this time as I’m still trying to make Marie’s backstory coherent enough even for myself haha. Like Marie, I’ve put a lot of work into this character and i really wanna see how everything pays off. Just the same as last time, harsh criticism is appreciated !

Thank you for your critique of Evie! I made some much-needed changes and clarifications, so if you ever want to re-check in her, that would be so amazing. And no, I didn’t draw that picture. My artistically talented twin sister did, who draws way better than I will ever be able to. :D

Hi guys!! @PaperCraneEnthusiast , real quick: would you like me to re-check Evie tonight, or do you want to drop a link later on? I just ask because I generally do two critiques a night, so I could look over Evie again tonight–but I don't want to unless you think she's ready for a second critique!! If you don't respond, I'll hold off until tomorrow just to be safe. Thanks for coming back again so quickly!! :DDD

@/ Destinee- let's do this!! I will do my best to be harsh, but I'm in a great mood today, so I guess I'll have to play some Ruelle to infuse my bloodstream with Edgy. Okay, top down…

(note before we get going: I don't recall if you said you did the art for Marie or not, but WOAH is that art for Ruuben AMAZING!!! Was it you???? It's so impressive!! And she's beautiful!!)

WOW. This is a maddeningly well-developed character, so I'm going to have to work REALLY hard here. Fair warning: these critiques may be tiny things, or they may be irrelevant since they're based in wording on the sheet versus your image of Ruuben. But I'll do my best!!

The most major issue I see in Ruuben's character sheet is the conflict between her spoiled upbringing and her exhausting decorum. She's constantly trying to prove herself as a good princess, but at the same time, she's been raised in an environment that serves her every whim. While some of the nobility may look down upon her, I would assume her expansive staff gave her a sense of superiority. As she struggles with how others perceive her as she grows, I would expect some of that to come out–as in, she'd pull rank a LOT, reminding people that they are below her, not the other way around. It could EASILY be a phase that she grows out of once she matures and realizes that treating others as they've treated her solves nothing. But I am a little surprised that I don't see even a hint of that in her sheet.

Pulling rank could also be a quick and easy outlet for her pent-up aggression. Looming over anyone who happened to spark her suppressed emotions well would be a PERFECT way to work through her anger. You said she can become very vengeful–this is where I'd expect to see it. And as a bonus, this could be a kind of pseudo-self-confidence–acting like you're self-assured because you're 'so much better than all of them,' when really, you're distrustful and self-deprecating. Just… given a lot of what I'm reading here, I'm REALLY surprised there isn't more elaboration on her hostility.

Also, I wish I could see more of Ruuben's joking, always-laughing self here!! I feel like she doesn't get to express herself often, and that's why it's not all over the sheet, but it's still part of her! What kind of people make her more comfortable? Is it only specific people, or is there a certain trait? What kind of jokes does she make? Are they self-deprecating? Dad jokes? Crazy, Gen Z-esque humor? Are there any mannerisms that show through when she's comfortable, something that she otherwise actively suppresses?

Okay, party! time! If I'm known for ANYTHING on this site, I want it to be ~the religion rant.~ It means… so much to me. Too much. (politics is good tho!) So here it is: I feel like explaining a character's religion is weirdly revealing about their character. If they follow an organized religion, perhaps they crave structure and ritual. If it's the same one their parents followed, perhaps they care about tradition. If it's one they converted to, maybe they're the kind of person who searches for the truth endlessly–or they joined the religion as a political play. If they don't follow an organized religion, it's also helpful to specify if they're atheistic or agnostic (read up if you haven't already! it's kinda neat actually), since that can define their worldview as nihilistic or hopeful. Anyway, it's not the MOST important field on Notebook, but I feel like it's practically another Nature trait because of how much it can tell you about your characters!!

(could you… drop… seraphina's link sometime…? even if not for a critique man I just want to MEET HER. desperately. she kinda sounds like the kind of character i'd fall in love with in a tv show, since i have VERY destructive taste in women. and i've got this thing for well-written lady villains, what can I say)

Backstory is solid and honestly INSANELY interesting. The worldbuilding here is just amazing. There's only one little point of confusion: the anti-siren sentiments. It's written like they just arose when Cloelia started getting popular, but how does that work? From what I'm scraping together, one mistress would have to be queen anyway. So why did everyone hate Cloelia enough to basically found a brand-new flavor of racism? Or was this a sentiment that was revived, not created, by the prospect of having a siren queen? I'm just ever so slightly lost.

Also, I have to say, committing a secret murder as a child is kind of a big deal. How did this affect her? Since it was so long ago, I wouldn't expect HUGE impacts on the Nature page, but I think it could be beneficial to explain how she reacted to the idea that she killed someone.

"Twin Sacred Beasts" YOUR WORLDBUILDING. OH MY GOD I JUST–

it's so good!!!!!!!!!

And that is all I have!! Seriously, you have an AMAZING character here. She's clearly well-developed, and I had a really hard time being harsh!! But in any case, I hope the notes I could come up with are helpful in some way. :D

@/ Destinee- let's do this!! I will do my best to be harsh, but I'm in a great mood today, so I guess I'll have to play some Ruelle to infuse my bloodstream with Edgy. Okay, top down…

(note before we get going: I don't recall if you said you did the art for Marie or not, but WOAH is that art for Ruuben AMAZING!!! Was it you???? It's so impressive!! And she's beautiful!!)

WOW. This is a maddeningly well-developed character, so I'm going to have to work REALLY hard here. Fair warning: these critiques may be tiny things, or they may be irrelevant since they're based in wording on the sheet versus your image of Ruuben. But I'll do my best!!

The most major issue I see in Ruuben's character sheet is the conflict between her spoiled upbringing and her exhausting decorum. She's constantly trying to prove herself as a good princess, but at the same time, she's been raised in an environment that serves her every whim. While some of the nobility may look down upon her, I would assume her expansive staff gave her a sense of superiority. As she struggles with how others perceive her as she grows, I would expect some of that to come out–as in, she'd pull rank a LOT, reminding people that they are below her, not the other way around. It could EASILY be a phase that she grows out of once she matures and realizes that treating others as they've treated her solves nothing. But I am a little surprised that I don't see even a hint of that in her sheet.

Pulling rank could also be a quick and easy outlet for her pent-up aggression. Looming over anyone who happened to spark her suppressed emotions well would be a PERFECT way to work through her anger. You said she can become very vengeful–this is where I'd expect to see it. And as a bonus, this could be a kind of pseudo-self-confidence–acting like you're self-assured because you're 'so much better than all of them,' when really, you're distrustful and self-deprecating. Just… given a lot of what I'm reading here, I'm REALLY surprised there isn't more elaboration on her hostility.

Also, I wish I could see more of Ruuben's joking, always-laughing self here!! I feel like she doesn't get to express herself often, and that's why it's not all over the sheet, but it's still part of her! What kind of people make her more comfortable? Is it only specific people, or is there a certain trait? What kind of jokes does she make? Are they self-deprecating? Dad jokes? Crazy, Gen Z-esque humor? Are there any mannerisms that show through when she's comfortable, something that she otherwise actively suppresses?

Okay, party! time! If I'm known for ANYTHING on this site, I want it to be ~the religion rant.~ It means… so much to me. Too much. (politics is good tho!) So here it is: I feel like explaining a character's religion is weirdly revealing about their character. If they follow an organized religion, perhaps they crave structure and ritual. If it's the same one their parents followed, perhaps they care about tradition. If it's one they converted to, maybe they're the kind of person who searches for the truth endlessly–or they joined the religion as a political play. If they don't follow an organized religion, it's also helpful to specify if they're atheistic or agnostic (read up if you haven't already! it's kinda neat actually), since that can define their worldview as nihilistic or hopeful. Anyway, it's not the MOST important field on Notebook, but I feel like it's practically another Nature trait because of how much it can tell you about your characters!!

(could you… drop… seraphina's link sometime…? even if not for a critique man I just want to MEET HER. desperately. she kinda sounds like the kind of character i'd fall in love with in a tv show, since i have VERY destructive taste in women. and i've got this thing for well-written lady villains, what can I say)

Backstory is solid and honestly INSANELY interesting. The worldbuilding here is just amazing. There's only one little point of confusion: the anti-siren sentiments. It's written like they just arose when Cloelia started getting popular, but how does that work? From what I'm scraping together, one mistress would have to be queen anyway. So why did everyone hate Cloelia enough to basically found a brand-new flavor of racism? Or was this a sentiment that was revived, not created, by the prospect of having a siren queen? I'm just ever so slightly lost.

Also, I have to say, committing a secret murder as a child is kind of a big deal. How did this affect her? Since it was so long ago, I wouldn't expect HUGE impacts on the Nature page, but I think it could be beneficial to explain how she reacted to the idea that she killed someone.

"Twin Sacred Beasts" YOUR WORLDBUILDING. OH MY GOD I JUST–

it's so good!!!!!!!!!

And that is all I have!! Seriously, you have an AMAZING character here. She's clearly well-developed, and I had a really hard time being harsh!! But in any case, I hope the notes I could come up with are helpful in some way. :D

Uh oh oh boy , I’m getting the ruelle kind of experience lol
YOU ARE THE SWEETEST LMAO THANK YOU yeah most of the art for my characters is done by yours truly so thank you, it really means a lot !

Not a problem whatsoever ! I just want to see different perspectives on Ruben as she’s got a bunch of stuff to deal with thanks to me haha

I can definitely see how her background and upbringing can lead to thoughts like that, but Now that you mention it, I’ve actually added that kind of mentality to her older sisters Stella and Arrabella 😂 Ruuben’s was suppose to be more aware that everyone around was ultimately ordered to be around her ( save for a family relative) which makes her more withdrawn from them , as none of them had actually wanted to take the time to understand the girl, prompting her to feel very alone and abandoned. But I definitely see some of that “ I’m a princess so blah blah blah” in her as some sort of defense against her staff even if she doesn’t really believe that her birth or that fact is truly something spectacular . Her internal struggle of Accepting both her elven and siren roots was more prominent to me but looking at your reasoning, I really have to start paying attention to that part of her as well

Ah all these things and I literally put them in other characters WOW well, Coming from somewhere so chaotic, I believe that Ruuben would crave for structure and given the assassination of her older sister and the evasiveness of her father, she would slowly move towards wanting truth

AND YOU’RE RIGHT I just need to find a starting point of the mentality towards sirens so it’s back towards the drawing board with me
And for a murder, I should really put what I ha down in her history rather than explain it with friends, but thanks for pointing that out 😭

Everything’s so immersive even if you did have a problem being harsh, I couldn’t really tell!

And you can totally have the Seraphina link LMAO she’s not as fleshed out as Ruben and if I could type as fast as I think, she would be
But go harsh on her as well , be she’s exactly the kind of woman you believe she is
I’ve just got no patience when it comes to writing these kinds of characters for myself, they’re just so mean sometimes and her insecurities are just ARRRRRRGH but I swear I want her to be the well written lady villain she was meant to be

I don’t think Evie is quite ready for another critique, but I’ll drop a link soon. Thanks! :DD

Hi ! I have another character that needs critiquing if you're up for it :) Ana De La Cruz
It's Garret's mom