forum Debate. Debate. Debate.

Started March 14, 2019 by Deleted user

tune

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Like there and back again? (Lol Tolkien jokes.)

Yep
It's people who have been trans for a long time, usually to the extent of taking hormones or getting surgeries, but then aren't. They often experience dysphoria again, but this time reversed, and undoing everything to go back to their birth gender after all those years is usually quite the challenge.
A lot of people who don't quite understand it will often assume they're being transphobic asshats, and people using it to push anti-trans messages on facebook aren't helping either.

Lol being anti trans I probably aint suited to answer this.

But I would say if we're supposed to be accepting then they're hella valid.

I think they're valid. (tho I don't think it's really anyone's place to choose who is or isn't valid)
Most of the time, people who detransition genuinely believe they were trans but when they actually started transitioning, realized that they definitely weren't.
Gender is weird and kinda hard to understand sometimes so if someone thought they'd be happier in a different body and then realized they weren't? Just help them get back to what they need y'know?

I think they’d be valid
I have a friend who thought she was trans a few years ago, she came out to some people, changed her name (not officially, we just called her by her preferred one at the time)
She ended up figuring out after a lot of questioning she wasn’t actually, it was just a period of questioning for her until she figured out “nope, I don’t think I’m that gender”
She never truly transitioned either, just asked us to refer to her as a boy and by a different name.

And yeah gender is pretty confusing, I’ve even questioned it at times so I wouldn’t blame someone who’s transitioned who starts getting those feelings again, and they should definitely receive the support they need.

Gender is such a loosely defined concept that…sure, why not? The way I see it, it's not my business to judge someone based on how they want to present. If that's their choice, then so be it.

Lol being anti trans I probably aint suited to answer this.

Out of curiosity, why are you anti-trans?
You guys have probably debated this before and if so feel free to ignore this lol

Part of being a traditional Christian is not standing with lgbt. Not that I want to spread any hate. I do think being trans is s mental illness. No offense I hope.

Oh no offense, I'm Christian as well, I just haven't found anything that leads me to believe that 1) It's a sin and 2) it's something I should judge anyone for. Gender norms and gender roles have changed so much over the years I just don't understand opposing people's rights to be themselves.

Yeah I know several Christian friends and loved ones who stand with LGBTQIA+ nevertheless. One of them is even pro-choice.

I'm Christian and I stand with LGBTQIA+ (partly because I am xD) but we aren't really traditional Christians. We're technically Catholic but there's a lot of stuff we do that we aren't supposed to do if you're Catholic, like how my parents got divorced, and we eat meat on Fridays sometimes during lent, I did have communion and confirmation though and I give stuff up for lent every year. We go to church on important days like Christmas, Easter, and Palm Sunday but not usually. I don't know if stricter Christians would consider me to be Christian.

If you consider yourself a Christian then that’s all that really matters. It’s not about what others think, it’s what you believe.

I would say two things. One, it is not my place to judge the sincerity of anyone's faith. Two, I don't know about other religion, but in Christianity there are things one must believe to be a part of it.

My dad is protestant and my mom is Catholic. My dad says what you need to be a Christian is just to believe Jesus died for your sins and accept salvation, and ask forgiveness every night for your sins.

My dad is protestant and my mom is Catholic. My dad says what you need to be a Christian is just to believe Jesus died for your sins and accept salvation, and ask forgiveness every night for your sins.

Your dad is right, at least from my experience. I was raised nondenominational, so

Oh no offense, I'm Christian as well, I just haven't found anything that leads me to believe that 1) It's a sin and 2) it's something I should judge anyone for. Gender norms and gender roles have changed so much over the years I just don't understand opposing people's rights to be themselves.

It also kind of depends. If we're talking about gender norms, I don't see why a dude can't wear a dress or whatever. But if we're talking about thinking you are the opposite sex, I wouldn't say it's a sin, just a mental issue. As for the gay, I find texual support against it in the Bible that does not rely on the Jewish law.

I would say two things. One, it is not my place to judge the sincerity of anyone's faith. Two, I don't know about other religion, but in Christianity there are things one must believe to be a part of it.

Where in the Bible does it say that being trans is a mental illness?
Mental illnesses in the Bible are from demonic possession, right?
Do you take that literally?

Oh I don't take that from the Bible. The Bible also doesn't talk about depression abd ADHD but I still believe in those.

To the detransitioning thing- yes, valid, because gender is a whack thing that changes over time. We know virtually nothing about the root causes of dysphoria. It happens, no one's in the right or wrong because of it.

To the LGBTQ affirming Christian thing- To start, I am what most would call a "strict" Christian. I believe the Bible is the Word of God, I believe God loves all people even though we're sinners. And that while we were sinners Christ died for us, defeating sin and death, then rose from the dead proving it. I believe Jesus was/is the Son of God but also is God incarnate. I believe the only way to "get to" heaven is by acknowledging you're a sinner and accept Jesus as your savior, and through that, form a relationship with God. I believe the greatest commandments are to love God with all you have and to love others as you love yourself. I believe God's kingdom is open to all people. I'm pro-life, and believe sex should be reserved for marriage (though I can't judge people who don't align with those beliefs). Those parts of my faith will never change. Recently I've looked into LGBTQ matters in relation to God. I'm curious as to whether or not LGBTQ people are really sinning in God's eyes when they're in loving, commited, monogamous partnerships. I've listened to both sides of the debate, from both philosophical and scriptural perspectives. I've studied the Greek and Hebrew. I've picked apart the few passages that do mention homosexuality. I've watched hours long debates and panels. I've seen interviews of very orthodox Christians who argue that their orthodoxy affirms LGBTQ people and their relationships. I've read entire websites. I've watched LGBTQ people with masters degrees in biblical theology speak on the matter. I've heard the counter arguments to the counter arguments. Quite frankly, I'm obsessed. I've read whole websites and watched way to many videos.

And you know what? I haven't come to a conclusion. Not yet, at least. I'm not finished with my research. Regardless, God loves all people- that's for certain- and you can be a Christian and be queer affirming. I'm currently leaning towards the more affirming side. Politically, I'm definitely an ally. Personally, I'm queer. It's hard to discern, but I pray God leads me on this journey and reveals something to me.

To the detransitioning thing- yes, valid, because gender is a whack thing that changes over time. We know virtually nothing about the root causes of dysphoria. It happens, no one's in the right or wrong because of it.

To the LGBTQ affirming Christian thing- To start, I am what most would call a "strict" Christian. I believe the Bible is the Word of God, I believe God loves all people even though we're sinners. And that while we were sinners Christ died for us, defeating sin and death, then rose from the dead proving it. I believe Jesus was/is the Son of God but also is God incarnate. I believe the only way to "get to" heaven is by acknowledging you're a sinner and accept Jesus as your savior, and through that, form a relationship with God. I believe the greatest commandments are to love God with all you have and to love others as you love yourself. I believe God's kingdom is open to all people. I'm pro-life, and believe sex should be reserved for marriage (though I can't judge people who don't align with those beliefs). Those parts of my faith will never change. Recently I've looked into LGBTQ matters in relation to God. I'm curious as to whether or not LGBTQ people are really sinning in God's eyes when they're in loving, commited, monogamous partnerships. I've listened to both sides of the debate, from both philosophical and scriptural perspectives. I've studied the Greek and Hebrew. I've picked apart the few passages that do mention homosexuality. I've watched hours long debates and panels. I've seen interviews of very orthodox Christians who argue that their orthodoxy affirms LGBTQ people and their relationships. I've read entire websites. I've watched LGBTQ people with masters degrees in biblical theology speak on the matter. I've heard the counter arguments to the counter arguments. Quite frankly, I'm obsessed. I've read whole websites and watched way to many videos.

And you know what? I haven't come to a conclusion. Not yet, at least. I'm not finished with my research. Regardless, God loves all people- that's for certain- and you can be a Christian and be queer affirming. I'm currently leaning towards the more affirming side. Politically, I'm definitely an ally. Personally, I'm queer. It's hard to discern, but I pray God leads me on this journey and reveals something to me.

This is really beautiful.

Holy shit, Owen. That was…really something to read :)

Oh, thanks guys :)

oof Owen that was so well written

If I may give my opinion, for I’m really just someone outside of the debate, but I wanna share anyway.

I’m a believer in stoicism, which is heavily based on Greek and Roman philosophies. Stoicism has really led me down a better path of emotional support coming from myself and myself alone. It helps me hone in on more positive emotions and helps me release more negative emotions through self-sustaining practices (such as simple acts of self-care and meditation).

I personally could never find myself practicing Christianity adamantly. As noted on above, I believe in the power from myself, and my own personal opinions and thoughts. I don’t believe there is anything beyond death other than the slight chance of our rebirth into something new. But the big one is the first point I made. My own word should be law. My morals line up essentially with “If you’re not hurting anyone, I don’t care”. But most of the time I just don’t care. I’ll support anyone with any morals and any views, for at the end of the day they’re just as human and vivid as myself. I can’t discriminate against human people because we’re all the same down to the barebones of our existence.

Doing so much research into Stoicism and watching the stars and thinking on it for a while (I also plan on meditating on it soon), I decided to just shrug it off. Because dude, nothing matters. We’re all made of stardust and we’re all gonna die someday. It might be edgy but that philosophy is something that helps me a lot to deal with really stupid, petty things.

Pretty sure you just supported subjective morality, Emi. Autocorrected to Emo Lol.