forum Debate. Debate. Debate.

Started March 14, 2019 by Deleted user

tune

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So you would force a woman to carry something within her body that she does not want?

Okay, I’m going to give my extremely blunt and biased opinion here:
I think it’s more humane to force someone through unwanted labor as a consequence of their actions than to brutally, painfully murder someone else who can’t speak for themselves because of a mistake their parents made. Sure, neither of them are fair or deserved, but the first one sounds a bit less… Insane. Just my opinion though.

I feel extremely weird talking about this
I know, if the mother is considering an abortion, she probably didn’t intend to get pregnant in the first place. It was all an accident, and she shouldn’t be fully blamed. But there are so many ways to prevent this situation that don’t include killing the child, so who’s fault is it, the mother for not being cautious enough or the baby for existing?
Maybe the mother did try to prevent it and it didn’t work out for whatever reason. It still isn’t the baby’s fault, so why should they be killed for it? If you’re going to do the thing that’s known for creating babies, you have to accept the fact that there is, indeed, a chance you’ll end up with babies, so if you’re not ready for them, don’t risk it.

Many people are informed of the dangers of pregnancy, but much fewer know about the dangers and risks of abortion.

How about in cases where the mother didn’t consent at all? It’s not her fault in the slightest, but it’s not the child’s either. So why should this baby have to receive the death penalty for something they didn’t cause?

(I had to type all this pretty fast due to my WiFi, I apologize for any spelling errors, logical issues, unfinished points, or broken links)

Women are not incubators.

Hold up, now I’m confused, aren’t incubators those things that protect unusually small or premature babies so they can continue to grow and regain health? And isn’t that kinda what the womb is built to do in the first place? …Making women, in a way, natural incubators but for their own children if they have any? I’m confuzzled, educate me. (Sorry If something’s offensively wrong here, I truly don’t mean to be sexist or anything along those lines, I’m just a bit ignorant and want to understand these things better. _{Tbh it’s kind of embarrassing that I’ve messed up so many times I have to include apologies when I argue or ask questions in debates} )

Okay but, at seven or eight months, that mother does not want to get an abortion. She’s probably already brought clothes, maybe even made a room up for them. She’s picked out a name. And then, a doctor tells her that if she carries this baby to term, she and the baby might both die. Her only option is to get an abortion, or She and the baby die in pain. She’s devastated, but it’s the only thing she can do. Is that murder?

My goodness Ella. That was kind of fantastic.

Okay but, at seven or eight months, that mother does not want to get an abortion. She’s probably already brought clothes, maybe even made a room up for them. She’s picked out a name. And then, a doctor tells her that if she carries this baby to term, she and the baby might both die. Her only option is to get an abortion, or She and the baby die in pain. She’s devastated, but it’s the only thing she can do. Is that murder?

Whatever it is, every group agrees that to save the mother abortion is a valid option.

(I only have my opinion and not a lot of facts either, and this is my first debate, but it's fun…)

(^^)

As a medical student that studied obstetrics you guys are really starting to irritate me. (Sorry I just had to say it. Eris is blunt.)
Give me a moment to write up my other responses.

Okay so let me just start off by telling you guys how abortion works because you are all under the impression that its a rather brutal act of insanity. (Those of you against anyway.) Also….yes I have seen all of these procedures performed.

Medical Abortion - (AKA The Pill)
This is done only between 8-10 weeks. Which means there is no 'baby' or 'consciousness', it's literally a clump of cells that look more like cottage cheese than an actual human. The woman in question takes the first pill with her doctor and this releases the natural hormone, that women's bodies can already produce, to stop the pregnancy. There is no pain for anyone during this. There can be some bleeding and discomfort, but nothing worse than a natural menstrual cycle.
Up to 48 hours later, depending on the advice from a doctor, the woman takes another pill(s) to empty out the uterus. By this time the pregnancy is already terminated and the woman will go through her cycle naturally. Doctors will prescribe pain medication for the woman, should she need it.

As you can see…. there is ZERO slaughter and inhumane pain.

In-Clinic Abortion - (AKA The Vacuum)
This is actually the most common form of abortion technique and is completely humane despite it's horrid nickname. This procedure can be done up to 16 weeks, with doctor consultation, but usually not done past 10 weeks. The woman is given a shot of natural hormone to terminate the pregnancy, the same used as the above mentioned pill, a shot of pain relief, and a shot of sedation in which they can be awake for the procedure or asleep. Then a gentle vacuum like machine is used to suck out the pregnancy and tissue within the woman's uterus. It takes about 10-15 minutes with an hour of recovery time monitored by medical professionals.

Again….zero slaughter and inhumane pain.

Surgical Abortion
This is the one everyone freaks out about, although there is no need to. This can be performed at any time after 16 weeks gestation, but can require consent from the woman, her doctor, and a judge. Usually this is ONLY done if the pregnancy is no longer viable. Meaning- the fetus has died, the woman's life is in danger, the fetus' has extreme medical issues and will not survive etc. (I wont go into detail about how this is done because it can be a bit….graphic.) Pretty much what happens is the woman is given a shot to end the pregnancy and induce labor/ break her water. This includes antibiotics and pain relief/ sedation. The fetus and company is then removed after it is confirmed that there are zero life signs.

Lastly….zero slaughter and inhuman pain. The Fetus doesnt feel pain, because there is nothing to feel. Nothing gets heinously ripped and torn apart or out of the woman. The procedures are sad and difficult to watch for the faint of heart, but there is nothing to be afraid or angered about.

thanks!

Thank you Eris, I was going to say something about that. But I don't have all the facts.

But the child still dies, maybe it’s not as painful but that’s still completely messed up (in my opinion)

Thank you Eris.
And Ella, it may be messed up to you but it's not your choice and no one should be able to limit what a woman can do with her body.

Thank you Eris.
And Ella, it may be messed up to you but it's not your choice and no one should be able to limit what a woman can do with her body.

Agreed. Our country is about freedom, after all.

Except it’s not her body! That “clump of cells” is not just some hideous growth that you can dispose of if it inconveniences you, it’s a growing child with it’s own DNA, it’s own body, it’s own future, it’s own heartbeat… The list grows and grows. It is not the woman’s right to kill it off, it is not simply her choice.

At that point, in the beginning of the pregnancy, it's not a person with emotions that can feel pain. The key word is consciousness, and a fetus in the early stages is not conscious.

So you would force a woman to carry something within her body that she does not want?

Okay, I’m going to give my extremely blunt and biased opinion here:
I think it’s more humane to force someone through unwanted labor as a consequence of their actions than to brutally, painfully murder someone else who can’t speak for themselves because of a mistake their parents made. Sure, neither of them are fair or deserved, but the first one sounds a bit less… Insane. Just my opinion though.

Interesting to see that you would choose to take someone's right to their own body away. Sex is not a crime. It shouldn't be treated as such by saying that they should be held accountable for an accident. Labor is traumatizing most women suffer immensely afterward (Postpartum depression) and to add 'unwanted' on top of that is cruel. That's torture and unnecessary punishment. That is inhumane.
Imagine you got a splinter because you played in some old trees and your parent told you that you couldn't remove it because you need to suffer the consequences of what you did. Would that be fair? Would it be fair if it got infected and ruined your entire body and you suffered until it was flushed out of your body? Is that fair?

I feel extremely weird talking about this
I know, if the mother is considering an abortion, she probably didn’t intend to get pregnant in the first place. It was all an accident, and she shouldn’t be fully blamed. But there are so many ways to prevent this situation that don’t include killing the child, so who’s fault is it, the mother for not being cautious enough or the baby for existing?

It's not only a females fault. Sex is a two way street. It's no one's fault if it is an accident and it is a fully adult decision in which to take care of it. It's not the business of some politician in New York what a woman in southern California does with her body. She has a right to decide if she wants children now…or later.

Maybe the mother did try to prevent it and it didn’t work out for whatever reason. It still isn’t the baby’s fault, so why should they be killed for it? If you’re going to do the thing that’s known for creating babies, you have to accept the fact that there is, indeed, a chance you’ll end up with babies, so if you’re not ready for them, don’t risk it.

Good luck trying to tell humans to stop having sex just because there is a risk of babies.

Many people are informed of the dangers of pregnancy, but much fewer know about the dangers and risks of abortion.

There are risks to any procedure and the risks that come from pregnancy and birth far out weigh any of these dangers and risks. You have a higher chance of dying during complications of birth than any abortion.

How about in cases where the mother didn’t consent at all? It’s not her fault in the slightest, but it’s not the child’s either. So why should this baby have to receive the death penalty for something they didn’t cause?

Do you know the percentage of of abortions that are done without consent? It's ridiculously low within the united states. A woman must sign a plethora of consent forms before a doctor can even touch her.

(I had to type all this pretty fast due to my WiFi, I apologize for any spelling errors, logical issues, unfinished points, or broken links)

Women are not incubators.

Hold up, now I’m confused, aren’t incubators those things that protect unusually small or premature babies so they can continue to grow and regain health? And isn’t that kinda what the womb is built to do in the first place? …Making women, in a way, natural incubators but for their own children if they have any? I’m confuzzled, educate me. (Sorry If something’s offensively wrong here, I truly don’t mean to be sexist or anything along those lines, I’m just a bit ignorant and want to understand these things better. Tbh it’s kind of embarrassing that I’ve messed up so many times I have to include apologies when I argue or ask questions in debates

That's not only what an incubator is. I meant this as a comment about reducing a woman to nothing more than a broodmare or a breeder. No one should be told that they have no right over their body and have to carry something that they do not want. Women are not only gestational devices that a fetus and/or man can use for their gain. So yes in fact your comment was indeed sexist. (Not trying to be mean. just letting you know)

Except it’s not her body! That “clump of cells” is not just some hideous growth that you can dispose of if it inconveniences you, it’s a growing child with it’s own DNA, it’s own body, it’s own future, it’s own heartbeat… The list grows and grows. It is not the woman’s right to kill it off, it is not simply her choice.

It is her body Ella. That clump of cells she created. The woman can decide what she wants to do with it.
It's her body that the fetus is growing inside of, changing, stealing nutrients from. Technically, a fetus is a 'malignant' growth. (I mean this in the medical terminology way. Meaning- that the growth continues to grow and affect the nature of its host.)
The fetus doesnt have "it’s own DNA, it’s own body, it’s own future, it’s own heartbeat…" until much later on.

It is her choice. It's her body, her life, her well being that is getting affected first.

I’m going to attempt to keep my mouth shut for a moment because the more I think about it, the more horrified and angry I become, and when I start to get angry my ability to use logic flies out the window and I end up arguing using mumble jumbled memories and emotions instead of facts and evidence. So for the sake of being respectful, I’m going to disappear for a moment.
:)

I’ll be back with actual arguments once I take a break, breathe for a moment, and try ever so desperately not to scream.

Okay, go ahead. Sorry if this is getting too heated on my part.

……..okay.?