forum Ask the Christians
Started by @Althalosian-is-the-father book
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@Althalosian-is-the-father book

Honestly, respect to y'all religious people. I can barely keep up with half of what is being said now. You guys are pretty cool for being able to remember and stick to your beliefs!

Well we try. We all fail a lot all the time. But what matters is that we get up and try again. Thanks to CS Lewis I finally understand how the thing with Works (stuff you do) works. It's not that God is obsessed with us following the rules as much as it is that he wants us to be the sort of people who do those things. So (I think) following the rules is about learning to do the things until they become natural. And then when we are doing all the rules like they're natural we will be acting perfectly. Not that any of us will ever get there on this earth, but God wants us to make progress. Once we've done our part by trying, he'll fix us the rest of the way.

@Althalosian-is-the-father book

Okay but that right there, I have a hard time understanding.
How can you love someone but condemn a part of who they are? I used to be in the “gays=bad” camp when I was younger (haha, funny, I know. I had some repressed stuff going on) because it’s what my church and family taught, and I know for a fact you cannot treat someone with the same love and respect if you believe part of who they are is something sinful. My parents preach loving everyone, but they do make distasteful comments about gay people, misgender transgender people, etc. despite saying that god loves everyone and they’re to love everyone as well. You could argue they’re hypocritical in that regard, but they sure aren’t the only ones. It’s a widespread phenomenon. I’m always wary around Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin, even if they’d never do anything to harm me.

So I believe the only way this can work is to either believe that gay is a choice or that the gays are to pretty much never be gay (find SOs etc.). I believe that gay is a choice. One reason is because there is no proof that it isn't and that why would God say something is a sin if they couldn't control it. (I have things that hinge on "I know Christianity is true, so therefore…")
So they don't believe a part of who they are is sinful. They believe it is an action.

@Becfromthedead group

Okayyy so sex is an action obviously, but attraction isn’t. Like I might choose to kiss another girl, but no power of mine is going to stop me from having desires to be with a woman. By biblical logic, I suppose the argument makes sense, but I don’t think people would choose to be part of a marginalized community.

@ElderGod-Icefire

DUDE the whole bible is so fucking sexist. So much of it is like "????????" like it basically says that women aren't allowed to be church leaders and shit. So stupid

Sorry, kids. This stuff isn't allowed here. Questioning is good. Major disrespect is not.

Ah sorry I was just super tired and I wasn't thinking straight. I have gone back and edited the cussing out if that's any better?? Really sorry, Dom.

@Althalosian-is-the-father book

Okayyy so sex is an action obviously, but attraction isn’t. Like I might choose to kiss another girl, but no power of mine is going to stop me from having desires to be with a woman. By biblical logic, I suppose the argument makes sense, but I don’t think people would choose to be part of a marginalized community.

Well the feelings themselves aren't the sin.

@Fraust

I feel like it's sort of almost cruel to create a person with those sexual attractions and then say "oh but you can't marry who you love". As a Christian, this is something that never seems to be explained, and when I ask, the question gets avoided

@Fraust

Well, who else put them there? Satan can't make people

We want plenty of things based on how we were raised and how our environment influenced us. As well as our experiences.

But that doesn't really explain people who grow up in very Christian, anti gay homes who are still part of the LGBTQ+ community

@Althalosian-is-the-father book

Well, who else put them there? Satan can't make people

We want plenty of things based on how we were raised and how our environment influenced us. As well as our experiences.

But that doesn't really explain people who grow up in very Christian, anti gay homes who are still part of the LGBTQ+ community

Honestly I don't understand it all. But I do know that God in his reasoning has said such things are immoral. I also know that evil doesn't come from God. So logically it didn't come from God.

@Gentleman

Hello, everyone. I just finished skimming over this entire chat, because it has most definitely piqued my interest. Perhaps it is a little late to join, but… here I am.

In regards to the most recent conversation between @The-Althalosian-The_EccentrLc_VampLre and @Caustic_Fraust, as a Christian (by choice, mind you— not one who is only a Christian due to my environment or external influences, but because of personal experiences and decisions in my own life) who has struggled with feelings of homosexuality in the past, I would like to throw my worthless two-cents into the conversation.

I was raised in a very anti-gay environment. I was always taught that it was unnatural and outside of God's will. My mother, being a Christian, always taught me that homosexuality was definitely wrong, but that a Christian should love all gays regardless. My dad, who has been an on-again, off-again Christian with some odd beliefs, has really no tolerance for them. He still thinks that, in America, they should have the right to do as they please, but he doesn't like them.

Despite this, I had a major struggle in my life that involved homosexuality. I've grown past that now, for the record, and I am not a homosexual now, but for a long time I really struggled with it. I had already been saved for several years, already seen too many things to doubt God's existence, His faithfulness, or His love (and no, I don't mean little dopy things like Oh, this coincidence happened, so I shall attribute it to some distant deity! I mean things that literally rock your world to the point that denial is impossible)— and, yet, I still had this struggle. As someone who believes heavily in the spiritual (and for good reason, honestly), I knew that it was a sin, and that the feelings I had were not of God, or even truly of myself, but rather of some external force trying to drag me down. For all of my life, I have struggled with crippling feelings of loneliness, self-loathing, and fear of never being loved, and I honestly think that the enemy (i.e., Satan) was playing on my weakness.

Satan can't make anyone do things, but he can place thoughts in your head, lie to you, make you think you are someone or something you are not. He can make you feel desperate, alone, and worthless. This is what he did to me. He made me feel desperate, alone, needy, and then like a worthless piece of trash for sinning against God.

This went on for a very long time in my life, honestly. I didn't tell anyone what was happening to me, because I was honestly terrified. Terrified of being rejected or judged or hated. Terrified of people never being able to see past that part of me, even if I got past it and fixed it. I went to church every Sunday, tried to pretend like I was okay. Among my peers, I have always been (and still am) seen as the more "spiritual" one, the one that prays often, the one that reads the Bible and studies the Word with fervor— and, honestly, I was afraid of losing that.

I still loved God the whole time. I loved Him so much. I never blamed Him once. I asked for Him to help me, but at the time, I knew, in my heart of hearts, I didn't want to change. I'd found a new security. People in LGBT community rarely rejected each other, so here, I would not have to fear rejection. Even if the love was temporary, and some of it fake, I would not be rejected. Not to mention, I was in a relationship with someone— and I feared that, if I broke up with them, not only would I no longer be dating them, but they would leave me altogether, and I would lose the only friend I had at the time.

I learned that gay people aren't what I'd always been led to believe. Some of them are horrible people, but there are a lot of horrible straight people, too. I began to realize that some of these homosexuals really are in love with each other, and it's their only security, something they cling to. If I didn't have prior, proven knowledge of the spiritual realm and how such operates (to an extent), I wouldn't have understood where my thoughts, feelings, and desires were coming from. And, for the record, going to church in itself does not usually where get you this knowledge. I've barely heard any preachers ever touch on this kind of stuff. Being a Christian is not about going to church, in my opinion. That's necessary, yea, but that's not Christianity. Christianity is knowing God. And that's what saved me.

As aforementioned, I never blamed God. During this really tender period of my life, He was the only one I could trust. I knew He did not approve of my actions, and angering Him terrified me. Because I knew I was in the wrong, and He was not. "I want to stop. I want to change," I promised Him over and over and over. But it was sort of a lie at the time. I didn't want to change; I just didn't want judgement. Regardless, I never pointed my finger at Him and said "You did this to me," or "Why would you make me this way?" or anything else along those lines. I did ask Him why this happening. It's okay to ask questions, but you have to be willing to hear the answer. I started praying things like, "God, if you want me to change, give me an obvious sign." I shouldn't have been surprised when it happened, time after time. Yet I ignored the signs. Or tried, anyways.

Conviction ate away at me for a long time. That was God's mercy. Condemnation came next. That was not God; that was my adversary (i.e., Satan), once again putting thoughts in my head. I thought I wasn't really worthy to go back to God after all that. I could only hide my sin for so long, after all. People would eventually find out, and everyone would know. I would be hated. I would have nothing.And the person I'd been dating? The one I'd been so afraid to lose? They left me. I guess I was too clingy.

You know who didn't leave me? God. Some people, when they say they feel the "presence of God," they mean they felt a little chill run down their spine while they were praying, or maybe they just got this warm feeling in their heart while they were reading their Bible or something. That's not what I mean when I say I felt the presence of God. It's something that cannot be explained or describe. And throughout the entire time I was dealing with my homo problems, God would still allow me to feel His presence. He did not leave me. He did not judge me with a fiery wrath and destroy me on the spot like I had been taught to believe He might. He was patient with me; He showed me a level and depth of mercy and love I still cannot comprehend.

I was raised to be as anti-gay as anyone I have ever seen. I have been taught that God is a Just Judge, and that you should be careful when you play with fire, because He will meter out justice when it is necessary. Although this is true, this event in my life, this dark time that gave me a lot of emotional scars, when I did things I can't undo, taught me that He is also love. Real love. Not temporary, false love that might leave you the second you mess up. I betrayed His commands, willingly, over and over, for a long time. And even so, He constantly reassured me that He still loved me.

So I repented, and I tried to change. I got to point where I finally did truly want out, because I knew I would never survive if I didn't. I was in bad shape. I had deteriorated, mentally and emotionally, to a point I had never been before. And I guess I'd finally had enough, because this time I kept my promise, and this time I did want out. God got me out, too. That's not to say there was no work on my part; the person I had loved came back, wanted our relationship to continue. I told them I couldn't, but that maybe we could be friends again. I decided to pray about it first, because I still loved them, even if it wasn't in the gay way I had before, and immediately after praying I opened my Bible and read the passage where Jonathan and David are talking about their love for one another (in platonic terms) and decided to take that as a suggestion that it was okay for me to love them. I just could no longer be in a relationship with them, or love them in a romantic sense. Our friendship managed to get fairly strong again before we eventually cut ties, though that loss seems like nothing now compared to what I almost lost— which was everything else. Namely, my God.

There's more to the story after this, but I should probably stop my rambling here. My point to all of this is simply— I learned a lot from this ordeal. God taught me some very valuable lessons.
It's not an easy thing to let go of. People, Christians, might tell you to just change, but it's not that easy to do instantly. Not by yourself. It takes God. Especially if you're self-depreciating and fearful of losing people, as I was. It's even harder if you don't understand the spiritual realm and you don't know what's causing this. You think it's yourself. I promise you, dear friends, it is not yourself. It seems like it is. For awhile I thought it was me, and I'm someone who knows differently. It's a very convincing lie. Without the Lord's mercy, I'd be gay right now. Actually, I probably would've committed suicide.
I have viewed every LGBTQ person differently since then. I have a newfound compassion for them, because I know what it feels like. This was a long period of my life. There are more details than I provided here or will be providing. But I was a homosexual. I know. The only thing I don't understand is that I've seen a lot of LGBTQ people who full-blown hate God, and their core motivation usually seems to be that they think He's a jerk. They don't know the God I know, clearly, so I can't relate to that. The ones who don't understand, I can also fully understand why they don't think it's wrong. I know it's wrong. I wish it wasn't at times, but I know it is, and I understand why.
I also learned that God is not what most people think He is. He wasn't even what I thought He was, and I thought for sure I knew exactly what He was. Boy, did He prove me wrong.

If you read this, and you feel like you wasted your time, I am so sorry. But this is a true story, and it has really reshaped my life. It wasn't meant to be so… detailed or personal when I started. But, here we are. My jabbering never really goes as planned. Apologies. Whether you agree or disagree with anything I said, I'd like to stress that I'm not trying to start an argument or force my religion and beliefs on any one with opposing views. I'm just telling you my story and some of my beliefs.

Me, on my profile, literally: Don't ask me about my personal life.
Me, on this chat: Hello everyone. I don't know you, but have some of my deepest struggles.

@Pickles group

Okay sure but your mom wasn't locked up in a tower for 18 years only to marry the first person she saw that want her kidnapper
As far as I know anyway

@Althalosian-is-the-father book

Okay. I thought this was going to be a long and complicated question that I would have to take time to go through with meticulously crafted arguments.
But thank you for sharing your testimony. I have no words easily to describe the feeling I have. But thank you.

@ninja_violinist

hey @Gentleman, just wanted to drop in and say I really, really appreciated hearing that!! I'm so grateful that you went into detail even though it's such a personal topic - I think of all the struggles Christians are willing to talk about, this one comes up more rarely because there's so much associated with it. so it's a perspective I hadn't really heard before on that level, and it definitely meant a lot. (a lot of stuff you said, especially about God's love and mercy and being right there with me even when I feel like I deserve his condemnation, really resonated with some of my experiences, though in very different areas.)
so just. yeah. thanks so much for being willing to talk about it!