I think a lot of times "strong female characters" in stories don't work is because Strong Female Character(tm) (hereby abbreviated to SFC) has become a cliched archetype rather than a tangible movement that works to write decent, well-rounded characters. The SFC is now a lazy shorthand that story writers haul out to meet that "diversity" quota for maximum validity points so that people on the internet will be satisfied. These SFCs aren't actual characters any more than Beefy McAction Guy is. It's a money-making tactic and nothing more. But the insidious thing about the SFC is that even though she's clearly just an archetype, she is toted as the only way to do feminism correctly in stories when this simply isn't true. There is no such thing as a feminist story. A story can't be feminist because Feminism in and of itself is a movement that has less to do with women seeing themselves represented on equal footing with men and more to do with breaking down social norms that prop up the misogyny that is inherent in all aspects of society. You kinda can't do that with a book or a movie.
But more to the point, a female character doesn't have to be strong to be well-written. Take Meg Murray from A Wrinkle in Time. She's not what one would consider strong. She doesn't know how to wield a sword or fire a gun. She doesn't know how to fire off one-liners or seduce the men around her. She's just a little girl who has been bullied for character flaws that she developed as a result of losing her dad. But as the story goes on, she learns and grows as a character until finally she confronts her biggest flaws and uses them to her advantage to save the day. She is a strong character not because she can kick butt, but because she's…y'know. An actual character. And a well-written one at that.
Awesome couldn't have said it better. Speaking of feminism, I actually don't align or agree with it. I can't stand politic in all honesty. XD I just am more focused on being a person and living life the best I can. I think if anything that should be the focus of character writing. A character is going to do what they can to get by in life because life is hard. Whether it be Mrs. Fortune 500 competing against another company or the self-preservation habits of an abuse victim trying to live on an even keel. In the end of the day everyone needs their needs met.
Edit: Oh and yeah like you said cramming and agenda in a movie and film just isn't doable. Mostly just pisses people off or annoys them because either side of it someone disagree's with it or the agenda's party is usually misrepresented. Me I hate agendas in movies or book because I just want to check out from reality cause well reality sucks and why do I want to add stress to an otherwise pleasant activity?
Just responding to this because I don't want people to think that your interpretation of what I said is what I meant.
All I said was that when it comes to feminism, people erroneously believe that "Strong Female Characters (tm)" are inherently feminist when they're not because that's not what feminism is.
Also, I'm 100% all for cramming agendas or whatever that means into media because media is a powerful tool that can be used to disseminate information, especially feminism or other leftist information. While escapism is nice, it's not exactly escapism if the world you're "escaping" to is a sterile and whitewashed version of the real world. But here's the kicker: it actually has to be good and the people making it actually have to care. Anyone can make a movie and shove in an SFC or my personal favorite, Token Stereotypical Person of Color, so that little girls or women or people of color will see it, but it's another thing entirely when the product actually cares about diversity and the inherent struggles and beauty of what it means to be a female character/character of color. Of course, if a piece of media is literal propaganda, then that's something that would be rather annoying, to put it mildly. But propaganda is a very specific thing and it's a good idea not to conflate everything you see that talks about something even vaguely aligned with the real world as such.
I think a lot of times "strong female characters" in stories don't work is because Strong Female Character(tm) (hereby abbreviated to SFC) has become a cliched archetype rather than a tangible movement that works to write decent, well-rounded characters. The SFC is now a lazy shorthand that story writers haul out to meet that "diversity" quota for maximum validity points so that people on the internet will be satisfied. These SFCs aren't actual characters any more than Beefy McAction Guy is. It's a money-making tactic and nothing more. But the insidious thing about the SFC is that even though she's clearly just an archetype, she is toted as the only way to do feminism correctly in stories when this simply isn't true. There is no such thing as a feminist story. A story can't be feminist because Feminism in and of itself is a movement that has less to do with women seeing themselves represented on equal footing with men and more to do with breaking down social norms that prop up the misogyny that is inherent in all aspects of society. You kinda can't do that with a book or a movie.
But more to the point, a female character doesn't have to be strong to be well-written. Take Meg Murray from A Wrinkle in Time. She's not what one would consider strong. She doesn't know how to wield a sword or fire a gun. She doesn't know how to fire off one-liners or seduce the men around her. She's just a little girl who has been bullied for character flaws that she developed as a result of losing her dad. But as the story goes on, she learns and grows as a character until finally she confronts her biggest flaws and uses them to her advantage to save the day. She is a strong character not because she can kick butt, but because she's…y'know. An actual character. And a well-written one at that.
Awesome couldn't have said it better. Speaking of feminism, I actually don't align or agree with it. I can't stand politic in all honesty. XD I just am more focused on being a person and living life the best I can. I think if anything that should be the focus of character writing. A character is going to do what they can to get by in life because life is hard. Whether it be Mrs. Fortune 500 competing against another company or the self-preservation habits of an abuse victim trying to live on an even keel. In the end of the day everyone needs their needs met.
Edit: Oh and yeah like you said cramming and agenda in a movie and film just isn't doable. Mostly just pisses people off or annoys them because either side of it someone disagree's with it or the agenda's party is usually misrepresented. Me I hate agendas in movies or book because I just want to check out from reality cause well reality sucks and why do I want to add stress to an otherwise pleasant activity?
Just responding to this because I don't want people to think that your interpretation of what I said is what I meant.
All I said was that when it comes to feminism, people erroneously believe that "Strong Female Characters (tm)" are inherently feminist when they're not because that's not what feminism is.
Also, I'm 100% all for cramming agendas or whatever that means into media because media is a powerful tool that can be used to disseminate information, especially feminism or other leftist information. While escapism is nice, it's not exactly escapism if the world you're "escaping" to is a sterile and whitewashed version of the real world. But here's the kicker: it actually has to be good and the people making it actually have to care. Anyone can make a movie and shove in an SFC or my personal favorite, Token Stereotypical Person of Color, so that little girls or women or people of color will see it, but it's another thing entirely when the product actually cares about diversity and the inherent struggles and beauty of what it means to be a female character/character of color. Of course, if a piece of media is literal propaganda, then that's something that would be rather annoying, to put it mildly. But propaganda is a very specific thing and it's a good idea not to conflate everything you see that talks about something even vaguely aligned with the real world as such.
Ack sorry I apologize I guess I didn't make myself clear on what I was trying to say. lol
I got all that.
This should have been broken down and explained better. >Edit: Oh and yeah like you said cramming and agenda in a movie and film just isn't doable. (Its hard to do it justice and to cover all bases.)
This down here is just my observation of the world > Mostly just pisses people off or annoys them because either side of it someone disagree's with it or the agenda's party is usually misrepresented. Me I hate agendas in movies or book because I just want to check out from reality cause well reality sucks and why do I want to add stress to an otherwise pleasant activity?
But yes I agree with you there as well. You have to have something or it becomes very boring very fast. Even Fahrenheit 451 had an agenda. Which was about censorship and controlling people through government. And its a classic. So I guess what I should say is we need to be careful of what agenda we place in our writing because it CAN bring the author a headache and heartache. I would think certain topics take a strong mind and heart.
Your thoughts on token characters to also agree with that. I can't stand it. It seems pandering in my opinion . I think if that you are writing a story and the people of an area happen to be a certain race go for it but if a writer is throwing a random person in for views that's just well stupid or arrogent. I love shows like Moana and for some reason around me it wasn't well received at first. The movie makes me cry and I love the culture, I got to learn something from it because it forced to me to take a different perspective on life, values, and I even looked up the culture they based them from. Most of all what made that movie great was the mentor scenes. I love how Moana's grandma chose the right tattoo and as she dies sends Moana off on her quest as the spirit of a stingray. It has cultural value as well as a sentimental one and a feel goodness to it that is relatable. Our ancestors are watching over us.
"But propaganda is a very specific thing and it's a good idea not to conflate everything you see that talks about something even vaguely aligned with the real world as such." This is a good piece of advice people should adhere to more.
