Everyone loves to B88ch about how they hate strong female characters because they are "2D" but even if a character isn't 2D and is fleshed out it would seem many still hate strong females. There are a myriad of articles out there about dislikes and hates but can you name articles or reasons why you like strong females? What makes a strong female to you? Figuratively or Literally? Does she have to be a sword or gun toting bad888 or can a strong woman in your mind be a woman of spiritual strength and a pillar of example in society? Maybe both?
I think the “strong female” character type only works if she is still treated like a female. It isn’t interesting if she can just be replaced by a male character and be the same. She has to have depth both as a person and as a woman. If her strength is physical I think it’s import to acknowledge that she is a woman and still faces the limitations of certain parts of the female body. No matter what her strength is I think it is important to acknowledge that she can be both feminine and strong/smart/useful. It doesn’t have to be a trade off. If she isn’t feminine don’t give reasoning that makes it seem like she finds femininity to be weak or silly. Make it a personal choice of preference. If she can’t be seen as a realistic woman she isn’t a good character, in conclusion.
I think the “strong female” character type only works if she is still treated like a female. It isn’t interesting if she can just be replaced by a male character and be the same. She has to have depth both as a person and as a woman. If her strength is physical I think it’s import to acknowledge that she is a woman and still faces the limitations of certain parts of the female body. No matter what her strength is I think it is important to acknowledge that she can be both feminine and strong/smart/useful. It doesn’t have to be a trade off. If she isn’t feminine don’t give reasoning that makes it seem like she finds femininity to be weak or silly. Make it a personal choice of preference. If she can’t be seen as a realistic woman she isn’t a good character, in conclusion.
Sorry that my reply posted twice! Accident.
I think the “strong female” character type only works if she is still treated like a female. It isn’t interesting if she can just be replaced by a male character and be the same. She has to have depth both as a person and as a woman. If her strength is physical I think it’s import to acknowledge that she is a woman and still faces the limitations of certain parts of the female body. No matter what her strength is I think it is important to acknowledge that she can be both feminine and strong/smart/useful. It doesn’t have to be a trade off. If she isn’t feminine don’t give reasoning that makes it seem like she finds femininity to be weak or silly. Make it a personal choice of preference. If she can’t be seen as a realistic woman she isn’t a good character, in conclusion.
No problem, I'm new here actually so I will probably do it to at some point. You bring up some great points. One I hadn't actively thought of was femininity. I guess since I'm assuming that being a woman you tend to have that come in on a subconscious level? Anyway, some ways I think of femininity would be fashion, a character of mine even though she is a mercenary has a thing for fashion and indulges in it. She likes going to charities and functions, balls, and other things within the community she lives in, dressed up to the nines. Another is her motherly nature towards her brothers son. I think a lot of people however gloss over motherhood and tend to find it weak. I had talked to someone once and they found motherhood and humor in a woman to be something that was amiss in female characterization which made me feel glad I'd chosen it.
I think though if I may analyse video game culture for a moment. Do you think sexy clothing is a slight against femininity? I know a lot of people think sexy = unrealistic or objectification and others think it adds to femininity or sexuality. I myself while my characters aren't dressed radically, personally think fantasy is fantasy and can be whatever you want it to be. So if a female warriors clothing is well, not well covered or protected like the 80's heavy metal girls like Sonja. (I totally love them.) Its not a bad thing because it is fantasy, but I also love full platemail and realism too, all depending on the mood I'm in or the style of story I would go with.
I think a lot of people misinterpret a strong woman as a woman who can kill stuff, has abs and keeps a battleaxe in her purse or whatever. And of course, a strong woman can be like that, but she can also like pink, keep flowers in every room and not know one end of a gun from another. It's all about development and originality. I think as long as your female character is realistic, doesn't take shit (I mean, she doesn't have to beat someone to death for a catcall or kill men before breakfast, but if she stands up for herself and doesn't rely on a prince charming to save the day, that's ideal) and receives as much development and depth as the male characters, you're okay. Some misoginists are always going to hate a strong woman, not because she's a bad or weak character, but becuase she's a woman, so don't sweat it :)
A strong female character does what she wants and is who she is. not because someone else is telling her to be that way, but because thats who she wants to be. She doesnt have to be a weapon wielding warrior bad$ss, as long as she stays true to herself. Whether she be an ultra girly genius like Honey Lemon from Big Hero 6, a warrior with a heart of gold like Wonder Women, a nihilistic outcast like Daria Morgandorffer from Daria, or a strong willed but loving and loyal general like Okoye from Black Panther. Any women can be a strong female character as long as the character is given the needed time to have an interesting character arc. The reason why female characters are often seen as 2D is because they are written by people who dont care if they're anymore than 2D.
Hi! I think the best example this year for strong female characters is Black Panther. The four main female characters, The Queen, Okoye, Shuri, and Nakia all have different strengths and their own character arcs. They aren't just reliant on the main character and their stories converge and diverge in different ways. None of them are considered to be the "strongest". Okoye isn't stronger than Shuri just because she's a warrior –Shuri's intelligence makes her quite a strong character as well! And Nakia's cunning and quick-thinking led her to save the entire royal family and Wakanda. The Queen is warm and motherly and a pillar of hope and compassion in Wakanda. None of the women sacrifice their femininity. A lot of the time, as the director himself said, the women of Black Panther were a combination of "aggression and femininity" without sacrificing any part of the character. Basically, a strong female character is one who has a real role in the story (not just love interest or sidekick), one who has her own goals/aspirations, one who stands up for herself, and one who has a fully developed personality.
I think a lot of people misinterpret a strong woman as a woman who can kill stuff, has abs and keeps a battleaxe in her purse or whatever. And of course, a strong woman can be like that, but she can also like pink, keep flowers in every room and not know one end of a gun from another. It's all about development and originality. I think as long as your female character is realistic, doesn't take shit (I mean, she doesn't have to beat someone to death for a catcall or kill men before breakfast, but if she stands up for herself and doesn't rely on a prince charming to save the day, that's ideal) and receives as much development and depth as the male characters, you're okay. Some misoginists are always going to hate a strong woman, not because she's a bad or weak character, but becuase she's a woman, so don't sweat it :)
I love your thoughts! What would make one misogynist? I know some people think I am one for thinking woman to need to stay out of professional sports. Danica… Cough I love Susie Wolff and she couldn't have put it better. She essentially developed cars for an F1 team and put it as "I'm fast. But I'm, not competitive or aggressive enough to hold my own out there." She recognized her limits. I know some people would disagree with the statement above with women and sports. I have nothing against them playing them, but in all truth how many can keep up out there? Even the best of the best has a hard time because of physiology. Is recognizing either genders limitations considered to be misogynist?
A strong female character is one that is strong through her actions weather they be emotionally triggered or physically triggered.
I'm pretty sure most of us can agree that whenever someone does create a strong female character, they became badass because of something along the lines of a man breaking her heart, so they start hating the world for it. I think this is fine if you really have a strong reason and background, but typically (especially in young artists and writers) the creator doesn't think through it and either doesn't WANT to think through it or ya know, they want to throw a boy in there. BTW I'm just speaking generally. I've seen one or two really well created fucking awesome girls that became the way they were because of this, but it is very uncommon. Honestly, I just really wanna see a strong female who's just into knives or whatnot. I love hearing everyone's thoughts on this topic and hope to hear more!
I've got some things to say on this, a mixture of what I personally find makes a good/bad strong female:
- Smart and independent, but a good team player- she's got to be able to think for herself, but will listen to others when necessary. I hate ridiculously stubborn, fiery female protagonists because they're so overdone. Stubbornness is good in moderation, and she should stand for what she believes in, but she shouldn't knock over other people's ideas all the time and constantly refuse help from others (especially if it's because they're a man).
- Relationships with other characters, especially men- Don't make her ever rely on a man and pull the "damsel in distress" act, but don't make her character one who is convinced all men are pigs. Give her nice relationships with some characters of all genders! Bad relationships too! However, keep in mind, that behavior should never be created by the writer as a result of gender. Romance is optional, of course.
- No angry feminists… please… It's a stereotype, and every time I see these characters in media, they just make me want to see fewer female leads, which is sad. You don't have to be loud and rude to be a feminist.
I think the main thing I would say though, is that "strong female" isn't just one type of person. She's not always going to be an expert with weapons, or a genius, or even the kindest character, but she should have a unique blend of traits, just like a real person. She can be super feminine and love flowers, or she can be a little more tomboyish and still be a great character. The best place to look for personalities for your female characters is, of course, real life. Characters modeled after the traits of real (as opposed to fictional) women tend to be best, because they're more realistic (which you'd think people would get, but have you seen many movies lately?).
As for revealing clothing, etc, I think it's 100% okay, depending on the reason she wears it and if she has a real personality and doesn't just exist for people to drool over. She wants to wear crop-tops and short shorts, and show cleavage because it's comfortable, and she's confident in her body? Great. But don't make her do it for anyone besides herself. It goes for real women too. You're supposed to dress in what makes you feel attractive, not in what others think makes you attractive. I will make the one exception for armor, which I believe should have more coverage, depending on the type of fighter she is.
"Strong" doesn't have to mean that she knows six ways to kill a man with a pencil. It means she's a well-rounded, dynamic character like women IRL. She has a vibrant personality, goals, fears, and flaws that don't hinge on the male characters. She's more than just an object or annoying plot device or aid to tell the male's story: she makes her own story.
I'm noticing a trend in articles and discussions online. That has been making me think a little bit. People complain about certain traits being not well rounded. So here is the big question:
*Can a weak character be a strong character to?
I'll explain what I'm thinking- qualities I've noticed mentioned online that people find weak and 2D can actually really be real traits in people. Like a lot of you have said how you do not like how a female will rely on a man and needs to be independent. Well… I'll share something personal with you guys in hopes this can help people build stronger characters or think outside the box more.
I've been going to therapy for a few years and have been forcing myself to come to terms with abuse and some well rather unsavory things. I have also been forced to see bad habits I still am having a hard time breaking as a person. Some of these bad traits people don't want to see may actually just be translating to traits we are tired of. In a mentally unhealthy society we see a lot of characters written in an unhealthy manner, a lot of us write from what we know which doesn't help. In all honesty I couldn't tell anybody what a healthy relationship with a man would be like since I have no basis for comparison. I probably wouldn't know what one looked like if it bit me in the a**. That being said.
I have been diagnosed with depression, co-dependence, and a slew of other stuff in relation to abuse. With these types of personalities, people like me we tend to both cling and run from people. I'm stubborn and not always in a good way, mousey and shy but also outgoing, and when I am made to feel uncomfortable get loud and awkward. I catch myself now that I am aware of it relying on others (mostly men although women are not exuded form this) to make decisions for me or answer things I am uncertain of. I know I lack a backbone in a lot of things, and I have a hard time standing up for myself. I'm easily bullied like other abuse victims. Therapy is trying to teach me to learn how to stand on my own and grow a backbone. (I am told this will be a life long battle.)
I noticed a few of you expressed how you hated females that couldn't make decisions for themselves and like strong independent females that didn't need to rely on male characters. Well with the model of my kind of abuse I tend to look toward males and authority figures to make decisions for me. Example: My husband will come in to a doctors appointments with me because I'm anxietal. The doctor will be talking to me and asking me questions but I catch myself looking away to my husband to answer for me, and my husband has to remind me to answer the question. "He's not asking me he's asking you." This I guess with him comes from the fact that I trust his judgement. Or maybe habit of being controlled by my dad or other males I've been around. I can make some of my own decisions from time to time but I still have this thing in the back of my head that is afraid to answer wrong, do something wrong, or even have a wrong opinion. Examples of things I can make decisions on my own: Making dinner- what time, what to make, and when to get started. Things like what I like to do in my hobbies or what I want to work on. (Can be affected by depression though.) What I read, and who I talk to if I chose to talk with people. etc…
I tend to be a crowd pleaser as well and when people ask me what I want to do it feels awkward to me. I have a hard time standing on my own two feet because I've been told I can't my whole life. I've been told a slew of other things that make it hard to be independent. I can work a job independently and used to pay my bills independently, but that may come from a need to prove myself to others.
What I have written here is both a weak person but also a strong start for a character development I feel. I think its more about where you take it. I think most of you who are tired of certain traits and want to see others and independent strong females may have a similar mentality to me. We want to see the healthy side of society because Hollywood spent so long glorifying what was unhealthy saying it was healthy. Right now the focus of the last century whether a name was labeled on to it or not has been submission and dominance in women, rape, now mental health, and all manner of terrible things we've been taught to feel is kinky or sexy at the same time in the same breathe not. Mixed messages anyone? You may not feel its kinky or sexy and that's good but if you tread the deeper and darker parts on the internet you will find some sad and unhealthy people who find rape and abuse hot and sexy. These people usually have undergone those same things. It doesn't make them bad people, its their norm. My therapist says our first sexual encounter primes us for the rest of our life and we seek that norm. Our brain has been wired wrong and its harder to rewire it.
Society and media doesn't even have to be that way either we swing the opposite direction to counter and create strong headed, stubborn, rude and abusive women and think its strong. Can we recognize whats healthy anymore? I've come to the opinion over the last little while that weak or strong or traits people like or dislike aren't going to matter. In the end if you write well and take care to develop your story its characters and publish it, its going to be loved, and hated no matter what you do. You can't win everyone, but you can achieve something yourself and be proud of it.
EDIT: I have plenty of good traits too, like I'm loyal to the tooth, and have never cheated on anyone, stolen from anyone, etc… Have a high moral compass. People are drawn to me despite all that boils under the surface I am bubbley and happy, a really nice and considerate person. I am talented in many things too.
Just pointing this out so we don't focus on the negative wholly. I wrote this to show there has to be a balance.
Wow. That was well-said.
Thank you. I had been sitting on it all night.
I liked your thoughts too it got my brain jogging.
I have to through in one other thing on co-dependency. If you had a parent that did everything for you because you can't your not responsible, old enough, and don't know how the world works kind of excuses. It can diminish the ability to be an independent adult later in life. That is why its important to both discipline a child to be responsible and allow them some autonomy.
Kind of like the parent that does everything then one day drops you on your head expecting you to know how to adult. When you have had no training.
Wow. That was well-said.
Thank you. I had been sitting on it all night.
I liked your thoughts too it got my brain jogging.
Thanks! There's just a lot to say about female characters, and I could go on and on about it.
Wow. That was well-said.
Thank you. I had been sitting on it all night.
I liked your thoughts too it got my brain jogging.
Thanks! There's just a lot to say about female characters, and I could go on and on about it.
Yeah its hard to cover every aspect of it. That's why there are literally so many articles out there on different topics just on this subject.
I think the main thing here is more of a "we want realistic fictional women in media." Because really, there's nothing better than being able to look at a character and say "hey, I relate to them." I've always wanted to find those characters among the female casts of stories, you know, since I'm a woman too. They're just really hard to come by.
I think the main thing here is more of a "we want realistic fictional women in media." Because really, there's nothing better than being able to look at a character and say "hey, I relate to them." I've always wanted to find those characters among the female casts of stories, you know, since I'm a woman too. They're just really hard to come by.
Agreed. For me the feminist or abusive ones bother me. I dislike them but I wouldn't go as far to say I hate them since they are a plot device. Although there isn't anything wrong with showing a lady to be aggressive and abrasive at first it could be a bi-product of and underlying issue.
I think what I'd like to see is what is healthy since I don't know what is healthy.
Yeah, but even to the ones who function as plot devices like that, characters who are more than just a plot device are so much more likable. If a woman is going to be feminist or abusive, or anything else, she needs a host of traits to make her more than what that one word represents.
As for what is healthy representation, I think those are the things you'll know when you see them. Those characters and situations are the ones that make us feel good and make us feel empowered.
I think a lot of times "strong female characters" in stories don't work is because Strong Female Character(tm) (hereby abbreviated to SFC) has become a cliched archetype rather than a tangible movement that works to write decent, well-rounded characters. The SFC is now a lazy shorthand that story writers haul out to meet that "diversity" quota for maximum validity points so that people on the internet will be satisfied. These SFCs aren't actual characters any more than Beefy McAction Guy is. It's a money-making tactic and nothing more. But the insidious thing about the SFC is that even though she's clearly just an archetype, she is toted as the only way to do feminism correctly in stories when this simply isn't true. There is no such thing as a feminist story. A story can't be feminist because Feminism in and of itself is a movement that has less to do with women seeing themselves represented on equal footing with men and more to do with breaking down social norms that prop up the misogyny that is inherent in all aspects of society. You kinda can't do that with a book or a movie.
But more to the point, a female character doesn't have to be strong to be well-written. Take Meg Murray from A Wrinkle in Time. She's not what one would consider strong. She doesn't know how to wield a sword or fire a gun. She doesn't know how to fire off one-liners or seduce the men around her. She's just a little girl who has been bullied for character flaws that she developed as a result of losing her dad. But as the story goes on, she learns and grows as a character until finally she confronts her biggest flaws and uses them to her advantage to save the day. She is a strong character not because she can kick butt, but because she's…y'know. An actual character. And a well-written one at that.
I think a lot of times "strong female characters" in stories don't work is because Strong Female Character(tm) (hereby abbreviated to SFC) has become a cliched archetype rather than a tangible movement that works to write decent, well-rounded characters. The SFC is now a lazy shorthand that story writers haul out to meet that "diversity" quota for maximum validity points so that people on the internet will be satisfied. These SFCs aren't actual characters any more than Beefy McAction Guy is. It's a money-making tactic and nothing more. But the insidious thing about the SFC is that even though she's clearly just an archetype, she is toted as the only way to do feminism correctly in stories when this simply isn't true. There is no such thing as a feminist story. A story can't be feminist because Feminism in and of itself is a movement that has less to do with women seeing themselves represented on equal footing with men and more to do with breaking down social norms that prop up the misogyny that is inherent in all aspects of society. You kinda can't do that with a book or a movie.
But more to the point, a female character doesn't have to be strong to be well-written. Take Meg Murray from A Wrinkle in Time. She's not what one would consider strong. She doesn't know how to wield a sword or fire a gun. She doesn't know how to fire off one-liners or seduce the men around her. She's just a little girl who has been bullied for character flaws that she developed as a result of losing her dad. But as the story goes on, she learns and grows as a character until finally she confronts her biggest flaws and uses them to her advantage to save the day. She is a strong character not because she can kick butt, but because she's…y'know. An actual character. And a well-written one at that.
Awesome couldn't have said it better. Speaking of feminism, I actually don't align or agree with it. I can't stand politic in all honesty. XD I just am more focused on being a person and living life the best I can. I think if anything that should be the focus of character writing. A character is going to do what they can to get by in life because life is hard. Whether it be Mrs. Fortune 500 competing against another company or the self-preservation habits of an abuse victim trying to live on an even keel. In the end of the day everyone needs their needs met.
Edit: Oh and yeah like you said cramming and agenda in a movie and film just isn't doable. Mostly just pisses people off or annoys them because either side of it someone disagree's with it or the agenda's party is usually misrepresented. Me I hate agendas in movies or book because I just want to check out from reality cause well reality sucks and why do I want to add stress to an otherwise pleasant activity?
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