forum Can anyone help me? (this is LGBTQ+ related and kind of a long read)

Started December 31, 2018 by @rot-baby-rot!

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So, I haven't been on in a few days, and that's mostly because I got into a fight with some of my close friends and I haven't really been motivated to go online. Then, I decided to go on here to see if anyone could help me

So, let's call my friends V, L, and P. I'm extremely close to all three of them. We have a group chat and recently (while I was talking about Supernatural or Chuck or something) V started essentially making fun of asexual people in texts directed at L. L would respond with "lol" or something. I asked if it was an inside joke or if they were actually making fun of asexual people, and V told me that it was only because "asexuality isn't real, it's just something that spawned off Tumblr for people wanting to be in the LGBT community."

I kinda freaked out over this, but what I basically responded with was "just because you don't understand/experience it doesn't mean you get to invalidate it." Now, during this entire rant, I referred to the community as "LGBTQ+." V and L, for some reason, had a problem with this. L said that using the word "queer" was a slur, and V said that there weren't any sexualities other than gay and bisexual. I, again, freaked out.

While P explained that some people used the word "queer" as a way to not have to go into all their labels, I started listing sexualities other than gay and bisexual. V started saying how none of them were real, and how sexualities like pansexual were actually just "spicy bisexual" and "bisexual with extra effort." They also changed their argument to say that asexuality was just a preference. Then (which, this got me even more pissed off) V and L started saying how they knew more than me because I'm questioning and they both know they're bisexual. But, of course, it didn't stop there.

L was saying how these were just preferences, not actual sexualities, and therefore shouldn't be recognized. V also started talking about how all of these "new" sexualities were just spawning from Tumblr. She was saying how "what people are doing is ridiculous" because "they're just inventing genders and sexualities because they think the LGBT community is some sort of badge or trophy." P told her that just because she had never heard of some sexualities didn't mean she got to tell them they weren't real. L said that these people "are just trying to be unique." V stated that "imposters don't get to be accepted into the community." V also implied that what I was saying was warped because I have a Tumblr account

I said that what they were saying (throughout the entire argument) was extremely offensive to certain demographics, and L said that I wouldn't "win an argument by insulting people." V texted another thing that invalidated people that aren't gay/bisexual/trans and when I told her to stop invalidating people, she told me she wasn't because "we're not fuckign calling them names or anythign!!!!" (Yes, that's how she spelt it)

After some other stuff (which isn't really important to this) V mentioned that gender-fluid people were "toxic wannabees that imply that gender is a choice." I got even angrier than I already was and L told me to calm down because these were just her opinions. Her exact words were: "these are some of my OPINIONS. I respect yours, Emma, I really do. Can you respect mine and [V's]?"

Then, when I was defending gender-fluid people, V said that I was "just beating a dead horse" by continuing the argument. I said that I didn't really want to talk to her (or L) until school started back up again. She said I wasn't "being mature about any of this" and L followed by saying that I was taking everything too personally. Then I silenced the chat, and when I went back on later (just to check it; I wasn't texting on it anymore) they had all sent a bunch of hearts to each other and acted like the fight never happened

I know that was kind of long, but these are basically my closest friends and I don't know who to talk to about this. Can anybody help?

Well my advice right now is to get some better friends, or at least make it clear that you drew the line in the sand and they jumped over it. They sound like extreme exclusionists who clearly haven't done any research into the genders and sexualities that they are berating.

Also, I identify myself as a genderfluid, demi-pan person, so you can only imagine what might've happened if me or someone like me were there. I'm glad you handled it to the best of your abilities, and I thank you for standing up for us in the community who are excluded for being specific about what we feel with "extra" labels.

If you can, I suggest finding time to sit down with them face to face and tell them exactly what's up. You don't have to be aggressive, just frank. Make it clear that THEY were the ones who did something wrong and not you. If they seem unwilling to change or have a more open-minded approach to the issue, then curtly state that your friendship with them is terminated. If you think you can get them to slowly turn around with time and multiple conversations, then do that. I understand these are your closest friends you're talking about, so perhaps leave the termination solution as a last resort.

I'll try to talk to them when we have the time. I really hope I don't lose them as friends but I also just can't deal with what they said. Thanks for the support

Yeah… it's quite a conundrum they seemed to have put you in… I wish you the best of luck, buddy. I hope you can persuade your friends and avoid losing them.

I understand where they're coming from, in a way. They're just being very, very extreme about it and obviously haven't done any research, but that happens a lot. They might not necessarily be bad people, just ignorant people. I'm sure they didn't intend to actually hurt you, but if they did, they'll do it again and by that point you'll know that they aren't good friends and you shouldn't talk to them.
I would explain to them that you actually got really upset about what happened. Then tell them that you don't want to argue with them again unless they do actual research on the topic, like look into unbiased scientific studies and all that (because you don't want to argue with a person who doesn't know what they're talking about, it's honestly such a waste of time and it's very emotionally draining). If they try to say they did their research, ask them to show you exactly what they've read about the topics you discussed. Then it's up to you whether or not you'd like to maturely debate it or not.
I'm sorry this happened to you. Your friends didn't handle the situation very well at all, and they honestly seemed a bit insensitive and very ignorant. If something like this happens again, I suggest you put your foot down and tell them you can't continue to be friends with them if they continue to disregard your feelings. Those kinds of friends aren't worth the time and effort, trust me.
I hope things work out for you.

I second what everyone else has said! Tell them they crossed your boundaries, and set it clearly.
Sadly, you may have to agree to disagree- it's hard to change opinions when the owner of said opinion has decided it's fact. If this is irreconcilable, maybe make it a topic you just don't ever talk about.
If the friendship becomes toxic, find new friends. That doesn't mean you become arch nemeses with these ones, it just means you spend less time with them and more time with uplifting friends

They sound like toxic people who can't accept different opinions/facts. That could be a problem in other areas beyond the LGBT+ spectrum. Like what others have said, you may have to find new friends. Also ask V and L where they got their 'information' from. Some LGBT+-phobic people I have met were regularly watching extreme right wing YouTube channels/forums without realising they were biased (Warning: This ended up being pretty long).

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the word "queer" was a slur

Some people (other than your friends) do still consider 'queer' to be a slur, I use LGBT+ instead of LGBTQ+

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Prejudice can be partly due to ignorance, so I have analysed your friends remarks and pointed out the mistakes, while including links to websites and research papers.

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They said "asexuality isn't real, it's just something that spawned off Tumblr for people wanting to be in the LGBT community."

False. Asexuality started becoming visible as early as the 1980s. There have been studies into asexuality, even before Tumblr launched in 2007. This particular one on its prevalence in the population is from 2004. Asexual people also face discrimination (2012), even from other members of the LGBT+ community.

To help educate your friends, I would show those links to them, and also redirect them to The Asexual Visibility and Education Network website.

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V started saying how sexualities like pansexual were actually just "bisexual with extra effort."

As a bi person, your friend's remarks are hurting rather than helping the bi community by making us seem like hateful people. Pansexuality is separate from bisexuality, though it is sometimes considered to be part of the 'bi umbrella'. I wouldn't be surprised if your friends were confused about the definition of bisexuality.

Bisexual may have meant being attracted to cis men/women once upon a time more than a decade ago, but nowadays the bi community define it as being attracted to either:

• More than one gender, without attraction to all genders
• All genders, but with preferences (E.g. A bi person may prefer the male sex. This is different from pansexuality, as pan would be regardless of gender identity, so no gender/sex-related preferences)

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"just preferences, not actual sexualities"

Again, false. Sexuality (Or sexual orientation to be more specific) is defined as an enduring pattern of romantic and/or sexual attraction (or lack of). Do your friends really think that people are 'making up new things' for giggles? It's like transphobic or homophobic rhetoric; people don't actively and deliberately choose to join a minority that is persecuted, discriminated against, and said to not exist.

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"V also implied that what I was saying was warped because I have a Tumblr account"

That point is crap, and sounds a bit like brainwashing tbh. And it suggests that Tumblr is all LGBT+ positive, which is not true as there are plenty of tags and accounts devoted to homophobia, biphobia, aphobia, transphobia etc. (TW for all links in this paragraph)

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"we're not fuckign calling them names or anythign!!!!"

…They literally said that particular LGBT+ don't exist and are attention seekers, and they think that's ok? That's it not invalidating people or making them feel hurt?

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V mentioned that gender-fluid people were "toxic wannabees that imply that gender is a choice."

This is literally calling genderfluid people by names. Again, as I said with transgender and gay people, people don't actively and deliberately choose to join a minority that is persecuted, discriminated against, and said to not exist. Genderfluidity has also existed for much longer than the Internet. Just ask your friends to look at, for instance, the sacred Two-spirit identity among Native Americans that has existed before European colonisation.

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Sorry, this got long as well, but I wanted to include possible evidence and points for you to say to them. It's unacceptable that LGBT+ people still have to face this kind of discrimination and ignorance.

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Edit (Jan 2019): Removed a few sentences that were talking down polysexuality

Alright, I’m really new to all this LGBT+ stuff (I have very Catholic Right-Winged parents that try to sell oils to everyone they walk past) but to this day I actually don’t understand the difference between Bi and Pan, I googled it and it says Bi only means two so Pan is for more than two genders, but aren’t sexualities based off of sex, not gender? I’m sorry if I come off as a jerk or an idiot but I’m really not a homophobe or anything I just don’t fully understand this stuff. Also, with the Asexual thing, those people are crazy. Asexuality exists, some people might not consider It a sexuality because it means your not attracted to anyone, but it’s still a very real thing. Now, on their “made up genders” point, that’s not entirely wrong, while the ones they’re talking about are probably real, there are some sexualities that Tumblr has made up, and that’s not being toxic, that’s a fact. I would provide an example but I can’t remember the name of one I found… I think it meant “you’re attracted to either gender but only to people you’re already emotionally close to”- That’s Bi/Pan, just more emotional. Again, maybe I’m an idiot, I’m sorry if I look like a jerk. Also if I’m painfully wrong somewhere, can you explain these things to me? I’m still really new to this LGBT+ thing and don’t know what to google to learn more.

Oh, and there are people who have tried to use genders and mental illnesses as trophies, it’s really offensive and I despise it but again, it’s a real thing. I just remember one person who was trying to look special by saying she has a mental problem making her think she’s 200 pounds heavier than she is and she made up all these names for it, but nothing could actually prove that she actually had a disorder or anything, she just wanted to be able to argue about thin privilege being dumb and that all those people should gain some weight without looking like a hypocrite.

Again, it’s mostly on Tumblr.

Oh, and there are people who have tried to use genders…as trophies

Which genders are you talking about? Also, taking pride in one's identity (especially when one has been oppressed) is commonly misinterpreted as people using it as 'trophies'. I would argue that that sort of thinking is along the same lines as "I accept your sexuality, but don't rub it in my face" (Nearly always code/dog whistle for "Don't talk or take pride in it around me").

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a mental problem making her think she’s 200 pounds heavier than she is

Please could you provide a link to this, especially the 'made up all these names for it'? It's hard to judge if we don't know what was exactly said. That also sounds like body dysphoric disorder. It is annoying that mental illness is occasionally romanticised, but it doesn't just exist on Tumblr. Lots of other websites have the same problem, including our very own Notebook.ai (Have you noticed how people use mental illnesses in roleplays, to 'spice up' a character, and claim they have the illness without being diagnosed?). One of the largest influencers, the media (especially in fiction like books and films) also often misinterpret mental illnesses (For instance, mentally ill people are often presented as being violent when they are actually more likely to be victims of violence).

Additionally, you gave an example of one person. That doesn't mean that it's the majority opinion. When I gave examples of aphobia and transphobia on Tumblr, I linked a common tag and an account that is often reblogged.

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(Will write more)

I'll have to find the image, it was in a cringe compilation somewhere on the deep dark realms of the internet so I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to find it. I just remember all the LGBT+ people in the comments were pretty pissed. I think. Maybe that was a different one. I don't know.

it says Bi only means two so Pan is for more than two genders

This is a common and biphobic misconception. Some people may say that bisexuality excludes trangender and non binary people - not true. They may also say that 'bi' in bisexual means only two genders - not true. Words change meaning regularly ('Gay' used to mean 'happy', and does 'bi' in bilingual imply there are only two languages?). Some pansexual people might identify as bisexual, but this is usually only when they're around people who don't know what pansexuality is or what it means.

According to the bisexual community, bisexuality is attraction to:
- More than one gender, without attraction to all genders
- All genders, but with preferences (E.g. A bi person may prefer to have sex with men rather than women)

Pansexuality is:
- Attraction to all genders, but with no preferences

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To use an example:
We have 3 people - Alice, Bob, and Sue.

They are each meeting a group of people made up of a man, a woman, an intersex person, a gender fluid person, a trans man, and a trans woman. The trio need to list who they are attracted to (and would be willing to have a relationship with).

Alice is attracted to, and would be willing to have a relationship with, all of the people in the group except for the trans man and the intersex person.
Bob is attracted to all of the people in the group, but would prefer to have a relationship with the woman over the other people.
Sue is attracted to all of the people and would have a relationship with any of them, regardless of their sex/gender identity. It doesn't matter if they are a man, woman, intersex, or otherwise, she loves them all equally.

Alice and Bob are both bisexual, while Sue is pansexual.

Did this help in understanding the difference between bi and pan?

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I think it meant “you’re attracted to either gender but only to people you’re already emotionally close to”- That’s Bi/Pan, just more emotional.

Sounds like a description of demisexuality. People do not often call themselves as just demisexuals, the term is intended to be attached onto another sexuality as a prefix.
E.g. A demi lesbian will not be attracted to other women until she has formed a close emotional connection with them. You could also ask @SpicyStrawberryTea™ about this as well as they stated they were demi pan in an above post.
For more information on demisexuality, this article from the Independent - a UK online newspaper - is a good place to start.

(Will write one more post)

Ok, that makes a bit more sense

I'll have to find the image, it was in a cringe compilation somewhere on the deep dark realms of the internet so I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to find it. I just remember all the LGBT+ people in the comments were pretty pissed. I think. Maybe that was a different one. I don't know.

As I said, you gave an example of one person. That doesn't mean that it's the majority opinion, especially since 'cringe' videos deliberately hunt for the most exaggerated stuff that may even be from years ago (and the person may have changed their opinion since then). There are manipulators and bad apples in every part of a culture or society.

aren’t sexualities based off of sex, not gender?

Not necessarily. Again, word meaning may change.

Sex refers to what you are born with, but it's not as clear cut as Male/Female. 1 in every 100 people are born intersex - where their genitals do not fit into the definition of male or female (You may have heard of these people as 'hermaphrodites' - this term is now considered offensive).
Also, chromosomes (which determine sex) are not always regular either. XX male syndrome is when someone has two X chromosomes, but a male appearance and genitals. Likewise, in Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, the person has an X and a Y chromosome, but a female appearance and genitals. Essentially, without talking about gender identity, sex is a lot more complicated than it seems. And that's without even considering other chromosomal disorders such as Klinefelters (XXY), Turner (X), or XYY syndrome.

Gender is your personal identity. The majority of people identify as the gender they were assigned as at birth (known as being cisgender). Transgender people identify as a different gender than what they were assigned as at birth, and this is where people may start to use the terms sex and gender to mean attraction differently.

A lesbian may be willing to have relationships with trans women as well as cis women. Being lesbian would still be defined as her sexuality (if she identifies as that), despite trans women not being assigned as the female sex at birth. Likewise, another women would still be considered lesbian if she has relationships with cis but not trans women.

So while the terms 'sex' and 'gender' are often used interchangeably, but they can and do mean the same or different things in relation to sexuality. Hope this helps!

There are some sexualities that Tumblr has made up, and that’s not being toxic, that’s a fact. I would provide an example but I can’t remember the name of one I found… I think it meant “you’re attracted to either gender but only to people you’re already emotionally close to”- That’s Bi/Pan, just more emotional. Again, maybe I’m an idiot, I’m sorry if I look like a jerk. Also if I’m painfully wrong somewhere, can you explain these things to me? I’m still really new to this LGBT+ thing and don’t know what to google to learn more.

That would be demisexual/demiromantic. They're not made up, any more than all other words, which were all made up at some point. They actually fall under the asexual umbrella, they're just more specific than asexual because asexuality is definitely a spectrum
Also, NutElla, can I just give you props for being respectful and trying to learn more about the LGBTQ+ community? We need more people open to learning and accepting! Kudos!

You know, I used to believe in demisexual/demiromantic and I used to use those words to describe my sexuality, but I don't anymore. Mostly because it doesn't affect who I'm attracted to, just how long it takes for me to develop a certain attraction toward somebody. Of course, I'm not going to hate on anybody for calling themselves demisexual/demiromantic, I just personally don't consider it a sexuality for that reason.

Thank you for all your advice! I'll definitely try and talk to them about this the next time I see them

Sorry I couldn't help here…